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Pravda - Former Soviet borders are being reconsidered

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posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 06:45 AM
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Former Soviet borders are being reconsidered - Pravda


The Crimea precedent will make us look differently at similar issues in the Former Soviet Union. The problem was incited by Soviet authorities who loosely drew administrative boundaries between different regions. There are many of those who "suffered" from such actions, including, primarily, Transnistria, Karabakh, South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

The situation where ethnic enclaves are trying to reunite with their homeland has developed in the Moldavian Republic, Nagorno-Karabakh that legally belongs to Azerbaijan but de facto is controlled by Armenia, and South Ossetia and Abkhazia (their independence is not recognized by most countries, but South Ossetia and Abkhazia are subsidized from the budget of the Russian Federation). Similar situation is seen in the Fergana Valley with its territorial disputes between Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan for the enclave Shahimardan in the Batken region populated by Uzbeks. What about the areas of compact residence of Russians in Latvia, where non Latvian Russian communities began to consolidate?

In Kazakhstan, in turn, the question of the potential inclusion of Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan into Kazakhstan on the rights of autonomy is discussed. "Most of the borders in Central Asia are not natural. In the future there will be a situation when they will be reconsidered. We have to be ready for it. Borders should be without enclaves. The existing controversies will once be resolved. This may be true for Kazakhstan. As evidenced by the experience of Yugoslavia, everything can always be divided if there is such a desire," Kazakh political analyst Marat Shibutov told portal Total.kz.


This comment takes the cake -

Potential conflicts in the CIS are numerous, and they are all caused by the collapse of the Soviet Union that occurred in violation of international law. For example, autonomous regions were not given the right to determine their state affiliation.


Click link for remainder of the opinion piece.

As has been stated before in reference to Crimea, their is a mindset in Russia about restoring the Soviet Union borders. The discussion center around Russian enclaves inside former Soviet Republics. The manner in which the world reacts to Crimea will set the tone for further Russian military action.

The question becomes - At what point does the world say stop to Russia and mean it? The parallels between Putin / Russia and Hitler / Nazi Germany are to close to ignore and is not coincidental. Even the action being taken towards non pro Russian people in Crimea mimics Nazi Actions.

Crimea is only the first step...
edit on 16-3-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 06:47 AM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 

Also an issue in the Baltic states, I believe.
That would worry the EU more than what happens in the south.



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 06:50 AM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


The quotes are a bit complicated for me to get completely, but I read a news article this morning about how Crimea had a vote yesterday in order to rejoin Russia - and it appears as if the vote will succeed. So this could definitely set a precedent.



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 06:51 AM
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Although many of ATS members consider NATO's move Eastwards an act of folly
for ring fencing Russia, perhaps this is why NATO have moved Eastwards.. because many ex Soviet States feel vulnerable and Insecure.

If Russia changed it's policies then maybe there would be no need for NATO expansionism.

Also Russia was offered a NATO seat .. they refused!
Russia wanted special privileges and were refused.

NO two NATO members have ever had a war with each other.




edit on Sun, 16 Mar 2014 07:19:18 -0500197America/ChicagoSunday4 by rigel4 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 06:55 AM
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DISRAELI
reply to post by Xcathdra
 

Also an issue in the Baltic states, I believe.
That would worry the EU more than what happens in the south.



That topic was discussed in the article. The main issue there is they are all NATO countries. Any attack on them is an attack on all.

Aside from Ukraine / Crimea, Russia has its hands in Moldova as well. Specifically in 3 of their autonomous provinces. I know Kazakhstan and Belarus refused to support Putin's actions in Crimea, and I truly believe this is the reason why. If they support Russian actions, and then find themselves facing the same, I doubt they would gather any type of support from other nations to defend against Russia aggression.

Putin has backed himself into a corner and is to proud to admit he made a mistake. I don't see him coming around to reality anytime soon, which leaves very few options to Putin. Personally I think he is going to go down with the ship.



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 06:55 AM
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Crimea is voting today and if they should want to join Russia again who has the right to say that they can't? The PEOPLE will choose what they think is in THEIR best interests whatever way the vote goes. I thought that is what democracy is all about.



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 07:01 AM
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sosobad
Crimea is voting today and if they should want to join Russia again who has the right to say that they can't? The PEOPLE will choose what they think is in THEIR best interests whatever way the vote goes. I thought that is what democracy is all about.


The PEOPLE overthrew their Russian Puppet Government, Then Russia gets all butt hurt and in their face and doesn't just rationally reinforce their bases but proceeds to take the whole of the Crimea.

Which PEOPLE's interests are being thought of here?



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 07:01 AM
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sosobad
Crimea is voting today and if they should want to join Russia again who has the right to say that they can't? The PEOPLE will choose what they think is in THEIR best interests whatever way the vote goes. I thought that is what democracy is all about.


If that is in fact true and Russia is willing to support those who want to be free please explain Chechnya. If they are all about freedom and democracy then why are the Russians shutting down all media outlets in Crimea except for Russian? What is Russia shutting down media outlets in Russia who are critical of Putin / his actions?

Who is Putin / Ethnic Russians in Crimea to decide the fate of Crimea while ignoring / silencing those who are Crimean and are not in favor of Russia affiliation? Why has Russia sent loads of people into Crimea to vote in an election when they don't even live there?

Russia does not care about the Ukrainian constitution. If they did, they would not continually use the parts that support their position while ignoring those that do not - specifically related to Crimea.

If the people in Crimea are Russian, then they are free to move back to Russia. Why should a population of people move to a foreign country and then demand to break free and join Russia. That mentality is an invasion without the war.
edit on 16-3-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 07:03 AM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Are the people in Crimea voting for what they want? They are choosing what is going to happen, do you not think they should determine what will happen to them?



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 07:07 AM
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reply to post by rigel4
 

The problem with the NATO pac is that other less powerful members have to go along to get along .They would like to make it just one big happy family but as we know in the real world not all family members can get along and differ greatly on many points . The present world map of countries are just arbitrary lines drawn but some Eurocentric person that didn't have all the facts about the family members . I think this sticks out like a soar thumb when you look at Pakistan and Afghanistan just to name one instance ..



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 07:08 AM
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sosobad
reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Are the people in Crimea voting for what they want? They are choosing what is going to happen, do you not think they should determine what will happen to them?


What about the people who want independence yet don't want anything to do with Russia? The ballot does not give that as an option.

The illegal voting in Crimea is nothing more than the Russian version of a push poll.



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 07:13 AM
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Xcathdra

sosobad
reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Are the people in Crimea voting for what they want? They are choosing what is going to happen, do you not think they should determine what will happen to them?


What about the people who want independence yet don't want anything to do with Russia? The ballot does not give that as an option.

The illegal voting in Crimea is nothing more than the Russian version of a push poll.


I think the ballot is giving that choice, either rejoin Russia or stay with Ukraine everyone gets a vote, very simple,. People here harp on about how great democracy is, the people choosing what to do with their lives until it goes against what they believe, the people will vote and whatever the outcome it will show what the people want, not what corrupt leaders from other countries want.



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 07:17 AM
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sosobad
reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Are the people in Crimea voting for what they want? They are choosing what is going to happen, do you not think they should determine what will happen to them?


Honestly I think they should, so should those who no longer want to be a part of Russia's influence ever again but let's be adults about this and don't try to come here and sugar coat Russia's action in this. They didn't invade and then abscond with the region simply because they were looking out for the people's best interests. If we continued along with that sort of bogus justification they would have taken half of Ukraine. They didn't, why? Because they don't give a damn about the PEOPLE but rather were just attempting to steal some real estate they thought was strategic to Russia's interest.

Call it what it is.



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 07:17 AM
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sosobad

Xcathdra

sosobad
reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Are the people in Crimea voting for what they want? They are choosing what is going to happen, do you not think they should determine what will happen to them?


What about the people who want independence yet don't want anything to do with Russia? The ballot does not give that as an option.

The illegal voting in Crimea is nothing more than the Russian version of a push poll.


I think the ballot is giving that choice, either rejoin Russia or stay with Ukraine everyone gets a vote, very simple,. People here harp on about how great democracy is, the people choosing what to do with their lives until it goes against what they believe, the people will vote and whatever the outcome it will show what the people want, not what corrupt leaders from other countries want.


That's the problem - Crimea was never given the option nor have they recently asked for it. Russia just invaded them and went from there. When Russia is already discussing money matters in relation to Crimea it leads one to believe the voting is a forgone conclusion. If for some strange reason the ballot initiative fails, and Crimea asks Russia to withdraw, do you think it would happen?



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 07:21 AM
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sosobad
Crimea is voting today and if they should want to join Russia again who has the right to say that they can't? The PEOPLE will choose what they think is in THEIR best interests whatever way the vote goes. I thought that is what democracy is all about.


Do you consider the last two weeks ideal conditions for "Free and Fair" Elections.

Just wondering..



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 07:23 AM
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Xcathdra

sosobad

Xcathdra

sosobad
reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Are the people in Crimea voting for what they want? They are choosing what is going to happen, do you not think they should determine what will happen to them?


What about the people who want independence yet don't want anything to do with Russia? The ballot does not give that as an option.

The illegal voting in Crimea is nothing more than the Russian version of a push poll.


I think the ballot is giving that choice, either rejoin Russia or stay with Ukraine everyone gets a vote, very simple,. People here harp on about how great democracy is, the people choosing what to do with their lives until it goes against what they believe, the people will vote and whatever the outcome it will show what the people want, not what corrupt leaders from other countries want.


That's the problem - Crimea was never given the option nor have they recently asked for it. Russia just invaded them and went from there. When Russia is already discussing money matters in relation to Crimea it leads one to believe the voting is a forgone conclusion. If for some strange reason the ballot initiative fails, and Crimea asks Russia to withdraw, do you think it would happen?



Honestly I don't and if that should happen Russia deserves everything that is coming to it but I think the people should choose and they are, why shouldn't they? A right to self determination. What gives other leaders the right to overrule that?



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 07:47 AM
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sosobad
Honestly I don't and if that should happen Russia deserves everything that is coming to it but I think the people should choose and they are, why shouldn't they? A right to self determination. What gives other leaders the right to overrule that?


From a Russian point of view the people are getting a "vote". However, that movement towards a vote was caused by Russian intervention in Crimea. Why does Russia need to control the entire Crimea if they are ok with and would accept the vote of Crimean people? Also, the ballot itself does not say anything about remaining in Ukraine. The Crimean "government" already shot that argument down by their actions of declaring Crimea independent.

The ballot is phrased like a push poll.

If Russian / Crimea are so set on giving the people a choice, why was a third option of remaining in Ukraine not present?

Also, when you restrict the ballot in the manner they did, when you schedule a vote that is viewed as illegal, it means Ukrainian citizens who do not want anything to do with Russia will boycott the vote (as we are seeing). The next question is what law are they using for this vote? Ukrainian? Russian? Crimean? I have seen nothing that even broaches that topic.

Hypothetical - Since a large chunk of Crimea has Ukrainian citizens (the other 50%), and we see those citizens are being targeted, beat etc, then would it be lawful for Ukraine to invade Crimea to protect their countrymen?

What about Turkey sending military units into Chechnya in order to protect Chechens? Chechens make up 95% of the population compared to Russias 2%. Since Russia has fought 2 wars against Chechnya, would Turkey we justified in invading Chechnya / annexing Chechna to protect them from Russian aggression?

When Russia started making claims about their reasons for going into Crimea to the UN, they asked Russia multiple times to submit evidence to support their claims. None ever came. If Putin is so confident, then why not support the claims he made? Why not produce the evidence?
edit on 16-3-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 07:55 AM
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Xcathdra

sosobad
Honestly I don't and if that should happen Russia deserves everything that is coming to it but I think the people should choose and they are, why shouldn't they? A right to self determination. What gives other leaders the right to overrule that?


From a Russian point of view the people are getting a "vote". However, that movement towards a vote was caused by Russian intervention in Crimea. Why does Russia need to control the entire Crimea if they are ok with and would accept the vote of Crimean people? Also, the ballot itself does not say anything about remaining in Ukraine. The Crimean "government" already shot that argument down by their actions of declaring Crimea independent.

The ballot is phrased like a push poll.

If Russian / Crimea are so set on giving the people a choice, why was a third option of remaining in Ukraine not present?

Also, when you restrict the ballot in the manner they did, when you schedule a vote that is viewed as illegal, it means Ukrainian citizens who do not want anything to do with Russia will boycott the vote (as we are seeing). The next question is what law are they using for this vote? Ukrainian? Russian? Crimean? I have seen nothing that even broaches that topic.

Hypothetical - Since a large chunk of Crimea has Ukrainian citizens (the other 50%), and we see those citizens are being targeted, beat etc, then would it be lawful for Ukraine to invade Crimea to protect their countrymen?

What about Turkey sending military units into Chechnya in order to protect Chechens? Chechens make up 95% of the population compared to Russias 2%. Since Russia has fought 2 wars against Chechnya, would Turkey we justified in invading Chechnya / annexing Chechna to protect them from Russian aggression?

When Russia started making claims about their reasons for going into Crimea to the UN, they asked Russia multiple times to submit evidence to support their claims. None ever came. If Putin is so confident, then why not support the claims he made? Why not produce the evidence?
edit on 16-3-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)


See now is where you lose me, you call what people want illegal because a new government in Ukraine, who might I add have very questionable political ideologies, says so, did the people of Crimea want this government telling them what to do? You are basically saying if they want Russia gone they should go but if they want to be a part of Russia it is rigged. The people of Crimea are getting a vote now, their wishes should be accepted as what they want.



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 08:09 AM
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Ukraine is about 20% Russians and Russian Speakers and people who seek a return to Russia. (In Crimea its around 60% Russians). The other 80% are non-Russian Ukrainians all with different agendas. Some want to split from the Russians, some want a United Ukraine, some want a European Ukraine. The problem with ALL of these people is that the define their well-being over border-details rather than personal conduct in daily life.
edit on 2014 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 08:21 AM
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sosobad
See now is where you lose me, you call what people want illegal because a new government in Ukraine, who might I add have very questionable political ideologies, says so,

Because Crimea is not empowered to do what they are doing under Ukraine's Constitution. Only the federal government can negotiate over Ukrainian territorial issues, not Crimea and if border changes are to occur it must be a Ukrainian wide vote and not those in Crimea.

Secondly - Russia has invaded Chechnya twice. Apparently Putin only worries about protecting Ethnic Russians.
If Putin and all other Russians feel they should be allowed to vote, then Chechnya should get the chance as well. However, since they are also under Russian occupation......


As for questionable ideologies - Ukraine did not invade Crimea - Russia did.
All media challenging Putin are shut down - even in Russia.


sosobad
did the people of Crimea want this government telling them what to do? You are basically saying if they want Russia gone they should go but if they want to be a part of Russia it is rigged. The people of Crimea are getting a vote now, their wishes should be accepted as what they want.

no I am saying Russia makes its cases in Crimea by invoking the Ukrainian Constitution. When parts come up that does not support the Russian position, they just ignore it.

Examples:
The government in Kiev is not valid based on the Ukrainian Constitution according to Putin.
The government in Crimea is also not valid because of the Ukrainian Constitution however Russia wont accept that argument because it undermines their position.
Putin / Crimea set up the elections in Crimea, while at the same time they violated the Ukrainian constitution by doing so. Again, Putin ignores it.

etx....etc....

If Russians living in Crimea want to be governed by Moscow, then they should move back to Russia.

The actions Russia has taken is the litmus test to see what other nations response will be, just as Hitler did when he started doing his sharks and jets routine on the world stage..

Based on current events, every single former SSR is in danger. Any nation with a large Russian population is going to be a target.


edit on 16-3-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)




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