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Vovin
PS: Marx did not advocate a violent uprising.
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The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.
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The relationship of the revolutionary workers’ party to the petty-bourgeois democrats is this: it cooperates with them against the party which they aim to overthrow; it opposes them wherever they wish to secure their own position.
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The democrats will either work directly towards a federated republic, or at least, if they cannot avoid the one and indivisible republic they will attempt to paralyze the central government by granting the municipalities and provinces the greatest possible autonomy and independence. In opposition to this plan the workers must not only strive for one and indivisible German republic, but also, within this republic, for the most decisive centralization of power in the hands of the state authority.
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We have seen how the next upsurge will bring the democrats to power and how they will be forced to propose more or less socialistic measures. it will be asked what measures the workers are to propose in reply. At the beginning, of course, the workers cannot propose any directly communist measures. But the following courses of action are possible:
1. [v]They can force the democrats to make inroads into as many areas of the existing social order as possible, so as to disturb its regular functioning and so that the petty-bourgeois democrats compromise themselves; furthermore, the workers can force the concentration of as many productive forces as possible – means of transport, factories, railways, etc. – in the hands of the state.
2. They must drive the proposals of the democrats to their logical extreme (the democrats will in any case act in a reformist and not a revolutionary manner) and transform these proposals into direct attacks on private property. If, for instance, the petty bourgeoisie propose the purchase of the railways and factories, the workers must demand that these railways and factories simply be confiscated by the state without compensation as the property of reactionaries. If the democrats propose a proportional tax, then the workers must demand a progressive tax; if the democrats themselves propose a moderate progressive tax, then the workers must insist on a tax whose rates rise so steeply that big capital is ruined by it; if the democrats demand the regulation of the state debt, then the workers must demand national bankruptcy. The demands of the workers will thus have to be adjusted according to the measures and concessions of the democrats.
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They must work to ensure that the immediate revolutionary excitement is not suddenly suppressed after the victory. On the contrary, it must be sustained as long as possible. Far from opposing the so-called excesses – instances of popular vengeance against hated individuals or against public buildings with which hateful memories are associated – the workers’ party must not only tolerate these actions but must even give them direction.
Vovin
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He wrote it in the 1990s and he clearly writes out how Russian economy would totally recover by taking the Russian resource industry from private owners and putting it back into state control (which is what happened) and that the Russian state can assert regional hegemony by exporting resources needed by neighbouring countries (which also Russia has done).
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In opposition to this plan the workers must not only strive for one and indivisible German republic, but also, within this republic, for the most decisive centralization of power in the hands of the state authority.
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ElectricUniverse
reply to post by Vovin
Yes you are derailing the thread by throwing nothing but insults at me and making straw men arguments.
First, I have stated many times that even most people in power in the Republican party are corrupted... Second, the the United States has been going downhill mostly because of the Federal Reserve, the IRS and other legislation implemented by democrats/progressives. The system has become so corrupt that most people in power in both main parties are corrupted.
To solve a problem you need to get rid of the root problem, and whether you want to admit it or not it was done through leftist/progressive legislation.
The Pentagon didn't have all the power, just in case you didn't know. The U.S. government still has a semblance of 3 different branches of government which used to balance the equation until the banker elites, and the global rich families took over the U.S. economy, and then they took the world economy completely.
But all of that is for ANOTHER discussion... You are once again trying to derail the thread...
edit on 1-4-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: errors
Vovin
Leftist legislation in the USA? Now that is truly shocking. The only two parties in the US are Far Right and Centre Right. There is no real socialism in your country, except for redistribution of income tax to megacorporations and banks. But considering that these private entities call the political shots, then this would clearly be fascism, which can also be defined as corporate socialism.
The true leftists know damn well that "leftist / progressive legislation" is nothing but band aid solutions to keep the people from rebellion. Germany created social welfare in the 1800s for this very purpose- not because it cared about the people, but because the people would riot without subsistence.
The root problem is capitalism. There is no solution when the capitalist elite create world crises of which they profit from. Capitalism dictates that the rate of profit must always be maintained. The differentiation of capital to the point of absolute disparity leading to total collapse is an inevitability, NOT something that can be avoided with "leftist legislation".
Under "corporatist socialism" the elites are the ones who control everything "for the good of all, the good of the country, and their own profit".
Under a true Capitalist nation with a free market, each person has the right to their own property, and no state can confiscate their property or take away their unalienable rights.
Let's keep the thread about what is happening in UKRAINE and what Russia is doing in the area shall we?...
ElectricUniverse
There is a big difference between "corporatism/socialism/fascism" and "capitalism with a truly free market"...
Vovin
Oh man, if I had a nickel for every time I've run into some arrogant American on the Internet trying to tell me how stupid I am... It hasn't changed in the last 15 years, that's for sure.
And to constantly accuse me of derailing the thread as you continue this mutual rant in every post you make? Priceless.
Vovin
Absolute bullsh*t!
You have no clue. Corporate socialism is when corporations know they are too big to fail, so they engage in risky market speculation and loose a lot of money while knowing that the taxpayers will end up paying their tab to keep their corporations afloat.
In no way does "corporate socialism" have to do with the common good. I cannot even fathom how you came up with your definition.
Vovin
I don't know of any sociopolitical system outside of fascism that allows the state to confiscate personal property.
Private property, ie capital, is different from personal property. Even Marx and Engels clearly writes this in The Communist Manifesto.
Vovin
You're the one who turned this thread into some battle between good capitalist Ukraine and the evil communist Russia. Funny how I suddenly am accused of derailing the thread when I shot down your theory.
13th Zodiac
Fascism
Well, while you are telling us your facts. Why don't you explain to us idiots, why behind the speaker of US Congress, that there are two roman Fasci to the left and right of the chair.Thanks for setting us dullards straight.Jeez we could have been embarassed.
"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler
(Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)
Mussolini’s career as a Socialist agitator began at age eighteen as a writer for various left-wing magazines. By 1905, he had been arrested numerous times in Switzerland, France, and Austria for revolutionary agitation and Italian police had opened a dossier which characterized him as “impulsive and violent.” Although Fascists and Communists alike were anxious to deny it later, Karl Marx was the biggest single influence on Mussolini and he considered Marx “the greatest of all theorists of Socialism.” He shared Marx’ opinion on religion and once shocked his audience by daring God to strike him dead.
In 1910, Mussolini was asked by one of the Socialist clubs in Italy to become their political organizer and to edit their small weekly newspaper: La Lotta di Classe (The Class Struggle). For the next two years, with a portrait of Marx hanging on the wall he pounded out radical opinions on every subject under the sun. Catholic priests were “black microbes” and “poisoners of young minds.” He described the army as “a criminal organization designed to protect capitalism and bourgeois society” and urged soldiers to disobey their officers.
Mussolini got his first big break in 1912 when he took over as editor of Avanti!, the official organ of the Italian Socialist Party. Choosing Angelica Balabanoff as his assistant, he quickly rid the paper of the older more moderate writers and eventually more than doubled circulation by aiming at a wider, lower-class readership.
He urged the “necessary bloodbath” and the “physical extermination” of the bourgeoisie through which the proletariat would gain “a totality of power.” He urged neutrality in 1914 and railed against military budgets which might be used in a war against French or German workers: “Let us have no more talk of battleships, barracks, cannon, at a time when thousands of villages have no schools, roads, electricity, or doctors, but still live tragically beyond the pale of life. War,” thundered Mussolini, “is a prelude to revolution!”
On October 18, 1914, Mussolini suddenly announced in Avanti! that he had been wrong. Neutrality was wrong! It was not fitting for a great nation like Italy to stand aside while Europe’s destiny was being decided on the battlefield . . . Italy must fight!
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There are no coincidences in this world. You keep trying to defend the actions of Russia, and now you show that you are against capitalism altogether. A strange combination since you have been claiming that Russia is capitalist yet you continue to defend them.
More red herrings, and you keep backing the claims of Marx and Engels... Personal property IS private property.
Personal property is something that is yours, that you own, which is exactly what private property is.
No matter how many lies socialists and communists try to spread their handy work is sewn in the history of the 20th and 21st century, with the over 140 million + murdered people, and the millions more imprisoned in gulags, concentration camps, and indoctrination camps.
Yes, the discussion is about UKRAINE, Crimea and RUSSIA... Not the U.S as you have been trying to drag this thread into
Vovin
Because I'm a realist, not idealist. I am interested in practical global solutions. The Russian state-managed economic model is very efficient and stable compared to Western models, and such a model should be used in my country.
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Vovin
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Blah blah blah more sensationalist BS that makes no sense and can't be objectively proven.
Vovin
As an ideology, communism did not kill that many people. The majority died due to rapid industrialization to upgrade the means of production from peasant modes. This happened in both the USSR and China. This was the solution to the uneven development that occurred under imperial serfdom. In Russia, the farms were still peasants tilling the land for lords while the cities had the largest factories in all of Europe. They induced expedited production processes. It was the only way to survive against other empires.
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Vovin
And capitalism is no different. It has killed far more people that 140,000,000. In fact, I've seen that figure for North America alone, but the original population figures of aboriginals here is no conclusive. And the reasons why capitalism has killed are conservative, not progressive. People murdered to take their land, while survivors are enslaved to the capitalist empire. And the mass murder continues as a function of capitalism, while the mass deaths under communism stopped after industrialization slowed down in both USSR and China.
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Vovin
No, this thread is about the propaganda video posted in the OP, which was exposed as American-produced, for-Americans long before this thread was made.
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Vovin
But speaking of the US and Ukraine... Why is the US flag now being flown at Ukrainian special police HQ?
Vovin
Again, this is out of context. Personal property: your personal possessions. Private property: property used for generating capital.
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per·son·al [pur-suh-nl] Show IPA
adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or coming as from a particular person; individual; private: a personal opinion.
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Vovin
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Personal is private per se, but in this context they are different. The communists are not interested in confiscating your toothbrush.
DarknStormy
After being part of the Soviet Union it's got me beat why they would even contemplate joining the European Union. As for this video, does she think that the democratic legal system isn't corrupt or something?
Vovin
You lost me at "you keep believing in Marxism".
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Marxism–Leninism is a political ideology combining Marxism (the scientific socialist concepts theorised by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels) and Leninism (Vladimir Lenin's theoretical expansions of Marxism which include anti-imperialism, democratic centralism, and Vanguardist party-building principles).[1] Marxism–Leninism was the official ideology of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and of the Communist International (1919–43), making it the guiding ideology of the world communist movement. As such, it is the most prominent ideology associated with communism.
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"Russian economy would totally recover by taking the Russian resource industry from private owners and putting it back into state control
ElectricUniverse
Vovin
You lost me at "you keep believing in Marxism".
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You did?...
Marxism–Leninism is a political ideology combining Marxism (the scientific socialist concepts theorised by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels) and Leninism (Vladimir Lenin's theoretical expansions of Marxism which include anti-imperialism, democratic centralism, and Vanguardist party-building principles).[1] Marxism–Leninism was the official ideology of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and of the Communist International (1919–43), making it the guiding ideology of the world communist movement. As such, it is the most prominent ideology associated with communism.
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en.wikipedia.org...
Yes, I am aware at the "attempt" to call it "a scientific theory", but under scrutiny it is nothing more than giving an illusion of "equality for all" except anyone who doesn't want to abide by such ideology, and it is an ideology.
Every attempt at using Marx and Engels ideology ended up with socialist and or communist dictatorship... EVERY TIME... Yet you among others refuse to want to accept this fact.
The one not knowing what he is talking about is you. You claim that Putin's thesis/ideas have nothing to do with communism, but you yourself explained that in his thesis he states, and I quote..."...
"Russian economy would totally recover by taking the Russian resource industry from private owners and putting it back into state control
Putin wants state control, a centralized form of government where the states controls all the means of production and infrastructure, among other things.... I have already shown that is EXACTLY what Marx and Engels explained they wanted to accomplish to attain the "dictatorship of the proletariat."
edit on 5-4-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: errors.