It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

I am an Ukranian, and this video must be spread around the world. (video)

page: 12
42
<< 9  10  11    13 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 06:52 AM
link   
How this thread got here I'll never understand. However comparing Putin to the Fuhrer shows extreme lack of historical understanding. I don't recall Putin having 80million people who marveled at his genus, supported him unilaterally and held on religiously ever though they knew he was dragging to the abyss.

I think Putin's attack on the West is staged in order to separate himself politically to appeal to the masses. His so-called subbing of President Obama is purely for effect.

The capitalistic inroads in the region have angered hardliners and Putin is trying to capitalize the feeling to improve his standing as a dictator.

So many fall right into this with no understanding whatsoever of the geopolitical history of Eastern Europe.

They are also over influenced by western standards and have trouble understanding that not every one wants to live under a capitalistic democracy.

To understand the politics of the region you need to have a spooks mentality in which white is not necessarily white and black seldom is black.

At the Agency in Virgina this is exactly how they are analyzing this.




posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 08:14 AM
link   

Vovin

PS: Marx did not advocate a violent uprising.


It is called a "dictatorship of the proletariat" for a reason... It is the fact that Marx and Engels wanted to exchange one type of dictatorship for another one worse. A dictatorship that must be constant and can't have any opposition.

In The Communist Manifesto section 1, Bourgeois and Proletarians (Part 2) Marx and Engels even defined that there are other classes also in the struggle which are different to the proletariat, for example the middle class. They state firmly that the middle class (even the lower middle class) are part of different classes from the proletarian, and that only the revolutionary class are the proletariat. All branches of socialism, including communism, are proclaimed to be a dictatorship of the poor. But in reality the people in power are those who belong to the higher ranks of the Communist party. They are the ones who have all the power in such dictatorships...

Most people let their emotions dictate their understanding of the meaning of socialism, including communism, instead of thinking through what such a DICTATORSHIP means.

You can't simply have all the poor people, millions of people be an active part of a government. I wish it was possible but it isn't. This is one of the many reasons why true socialism and all it's branches always turn out into the worse dictatorships. Because all the power that is "supposedly" given to the people is in actuality given to a few, because most people have no idea on how to run a country, it's laws and it's infraestructure.

You have a group of people "claiming" the poor will rule, when in fact some in the middle class, either well educated or who have good connections, and are part of the high ranks in the military become the NEW dictators.

Karl Marx and Engels were not poor people. They were well educated and from THE MIDDLE CLASS who obviously wanted to form their own form of dictatorship.

There will always be government, no matter how it is called. Every one of us has a different view on how a government should be run, so every "society" will have elected people in power who supposedly will work for the people. But when you take away the balance of power and just give it all to a few, it turns into some of the worse dictatorships on the planet.

Again, it is called "DICTATORSHIP of the proletariat" for a reason.

On chapter 4 Marx and Engels explained, and I quote:


...
The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.
...

www.marxists.org...

Marx and Engels state clearly all over their writings that socialism/communism is only achieved through violence. They also explain throughout their writings that there must be oppression on all opposition to socialism.

Yet you want to proclaim "PS: Marx did not advocate a violent uprising."?... And you seriously want to sit there and proclaim this is not true?

In the name of "the good of the collective" and "people must give out certain rights for the good of all" dictatorships form.

Not only that, they also explain how the "proletarian dictatorship" must use the "petty-bourgeois democrats" for their own end.



Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League. (Karl Marx and Frederick Engels London, March 1850



...
The relationship of the revolutionary workers party to the petty-bourgeois democrats is this: it cooperates with them against the party which they aim to overthrow; it opposes them wherever they wish to secure their own position.
...
The democrats will either work directly towards a federated republic, or at least, if they cannot avoid the one and indivisible republic they will attempt to paralyze the central government by granting the municipalities and provinces the greatest possible autonomy and independence. In opposition to this plan the workers must not only strive for one and indivisible German republic, but also, within this republic, for the most decisive centralization of power in the hands of the state authority.
...
We have seen how the next upsurge will bring the democrats to power and how they will be forced to propose more or less socialistic measures. it will be asked what measures the workers are to propose in reply. At the beginning, of course, the workers cannot propose any directly communist measures. But the following courses of action are possible:

1. [v]They can force the democrats to make inroads into as many areas of the existing social order as possible, so as to disturb its regular functioning and so that the petty-bourgeois democrats compromise themselves; furthermore, the workers can force the concentration of as many productive forces as possible – means of transport, factories, railways, etc. – in the hands of the state.

2. They must drive the proposals of the democrats to their logical extreme (the democrats will in any case act in a reformist and not a revolutionary manner) and transform these proposals into direct attacks on private property. If, for instance, the petty bourgeoisie propose the purchase of the railways and factories, the workers must demand that these railways and factories simply be confiscated by the state without compensation as the property of reactionaries. If the democrats propose a proportional tax, then the workers must demand a progressive tax; if the democrats themselves propose a moderate progressive tax, then the workers must insist on a tax whose rates rise so steeply that big capital is ruined by it; if the democrats demand the regulation of the state debt, then the workers must demand national bankruptcy. The demands of the workers will thus have to be adjusted according to the measures and concessions of the democrats.
...
They must work to ensure that the immediate revolutionary excitement is not suddenly suppressed after the victory. On the contrary, it must be sustained as long as possible. Far from opposing the so-called excesses – instances of popular vengeance against hated individuals or against public buildings with which hateful memories are associated – the workers party must not only tolerate these actions but must even give them direction.

www.marxists.org...

Notice how in the above address it is stated by Marx, Engels too, that workers must force all the means of production to be in the hands of the STATE... Not the people...

That the workers must force the centralization of power to THE HANDS OF THE STATE, and that the workers must even entice acts of violence against people of other classes, including the lower middle class and middle class...

Marx and Engel further state that the "violent revolution of the proletariat" must continue not only until it wins in one country, but "at least" in ALL the leading countries of the world. This makes the "violent proletariat revolution" a "constant and permanent revolution"... Because there will ALWAYS be opposition to "socialism".

It is hints like the above, throughout their writings, that people like you either don't know about, or just want to ignore or dismiss for whatever motive you have.

edit on 29-3-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: errors.



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 08:41 AM
link   

Vovin
...
He wrote it in the 1990s and he clearly writes out how Russian economy would totally recover by taking the Russian resource industry from private owners and putting it back into state control (which is what happened) and that the Russian state can assert regional hegemony by exporting resources needed by neighbouring countries (which also Russia has done).
...


You yourself have been responding to how is Putin still communist... You stated that he wrote in his thesis that "Russian economy would totally recover by taking the Russian resource industry from private owners and putting it back into state control"...

Centralization of power and infrastructure to the state......

...
In opposition to this plan the workers must not only strive for one and indivisible German republic, but also, within this republic, for the most decisive centralization of power in the hands of the state authority.
...

www.marxists.org...



Anyway, in order to see what is happening in Russia, and what Russia wants with Crimea and Ukraine people have to take in context the history of the nation and how those people who are in power today were also part of the "state" during the Soviet Union era, and still want this.

You can't deny the fact that Putin himself has stated that the fall of communism was a "tragedy" and he misses those old days...

Why the re-writing of history by Putin and his government on the violent, and criminal acts of Stalin?

Why the murder of over 300 journalists who have been critical of Putin and the Russian government?

Why the brainwashing of the people that the violent, horrendous acts committed by Stalin were "a necessary evil"?

Putin wants state control.... It is the same thing Marx and Engels stated while claiming "it is for the people/workers"...


edit on 29-3-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: errors.



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 09:29 AM
link   
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Again, you fail to show any real understanding of Marxism through your weak analysis. You clearly haven't read Capital, therefore you have no fundamental standing of Marxist socioeconomic theory. The Communist Manifesto was written decades before Capital, and was designed to be easy reading for the proletariat during the mid 1800s when things like the Paris commune were in existence. But of course you reference his most deliberately shallow work and take it completely out of historical context...

Marx and Engels most certainly did not state that the "middle class" as anything other than bourgeoisie sympathizers. Social democracy is "band aid" attempts to cover up the bad social results of the ultimate contradictions of capitalism. Maybe if you learned what those obvious contradictions were, you may agree with the theory.
edit on 29-3-2014 by Vovin because: Syntax



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 04:25 PM
link   
reply to post by Vovin
 


Even more ad hominem attacks trying to deviate, and derail the discussion...

There are many stages to transform a Capitalist country into Communism. Even Marx and Engels explained this in their writings. People like you, those who keep believing the fairy tale of Communism, keep getting stuck on the idealistic and unrealistic last stage of a "stateless nation/world." The last stage which can never be reached because in order to reach that state there must be no opposition to socialism, among other things.

Not to mention that even "if" such a stage was reachable, it would still be a dictatorship. A dictatorship in which the majority have all the rights over minorities, and the individual. A dictatorship which can't survive where individuality thrives. This is why in communist countries millions of people are sent to gulags, and/or other prisons for political prisoners. Prisons in which millions of people are sent because they dare to have their own individuality and want to be set free from the chains that communism puts on them by force. Not to mention the countless more which many times can be counted in the millions who are murdered "for the revolutionary/world cause."

As for your argument that the acquisition of "capital" does not make a country socialist, or communist. You are so far off track that it is not funny.

What was it that defeated socialists and communist regimes in the past? A lack of capital, among other things which includes a general discontent when most people can see through experience the truth behind socialism and communism.

Nations need an economy. Economies need capital. Capital doesn't have to be money, itt can be the exchange of a good or service for another.

To the communist, as Marx and Engels explained, socialism is but one of the first stages to transform a capitalist nation into the final stages of communism. To many socialists, socialism is supposed to be the last stage. This is why it is said that "not all socialists are communists but all communists are socialists."

The problem is that socialism always leaves the door wide open to communists to take over.

BTW, let me try to make it clear once again. I am not condoning a monopolistic approach to a socioeconomic system. Centralization of power, whether it be by monopoly/monopolies, by oligarchy, or even by socialism and communism, will always be a bad idea.

When you leave all power in the hands of a few people dictatorships form. There are NO EXCUSES to take away individual and basic human rights.



posted on Mar, 30 2014 @ 04:47 AM
link   
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


I'm derailing the discussion? That's a tall claim coming from the guy who saw an on-topic post he didn't like and turned this thread into a rant on leftist ideology.

LOL you claim centralization of power is evil and you've been crying about Russia all this time. You don't think there's a deepstate in every industrialized country? What the hell do you think the Pentagon is?

Oh hell, I have to edit again. You're also crying about how there's no excuse to take away liberty. Last time I checked, advanced capitalist countries seem to be experts at taking away individual freedom while claiming it is the name of freedom. And yet you're afraid of the communist boogeyman. How quaint.

It's just so sad that Russia is taking away the liberty of the US to place ABM batteries on the Ukrainian side of the Russian border. Just so terrible that Crimea hosts a Russian fleet and not an American one. It's anti-democracy that Russia won't stay within its own borders, according the the Americans that want NATO expansion in Ukraine and Georgia. It's just so unfair.
edit on 30-3-2014 by Vovin because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 12:24 PM
link   
reply to post by Vovin
 


Yes you are derailing the thread by throwing nothing but insults at me and making straw men arguments.

First, I have stated many times that even most people in power in the Republican party are corrupted... Second, the the United States has been going downhill mostly because of the Federal Reserve, the IRS and other legislation implemented by democrats/progressives. The system has become so corrupt that most people in power in both main parties are corrupted.

To solve a problem you need to get rid of the root problem, and whether you want to admit it or not it was done through leftist/progressive legislation.

The Pentagon didn't have all the power, just in case you didn't know. The U.S. government still has a semblance of 3 different branches of government which used to balance the equation until the banker elites, and the global rich families took over the U.S. economy, and then they took the world economy completely.

But all of that is for ANOTHER discussion... You are once again trying to derail the thread...


edit on 1-4-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: errors



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 03:53 PM
link   

ElectricUniverse
reply to post by Vovin
 


Yes you are derailing the thread by throwing nothing but insults at me and making straw men arguments.

First, I have stated many times that even most people in power in the Republican party are corrupted... Second, the the United States has been going downhill mostly because of the Federal Reserve, the IRS and other legislation implemented by democrats/progressives. The system has become so corrupt that most people in power in both main parties are corrupted.

To solve a problem you need to get rid of the root problem, and whether you want to admit it or not it was done through leftist/progressive legislation.

The Pentagon didn't have all the power, just in case you didn't know. The U.S. government still has a semblance of 3 different branches of government which used to balance the equation until the banker elites, and the global rich families took over the U.S. economy, and then they took the world economy completely.

But all of that is for ANOTHER discussion... You are once again trying to derail the thread...


edit on 1-4-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: errors


Leftist legislation in the USA? Now that is truly shocking. The only two parties in the US are Far Right and Centre Right. There is no real socialism in your country, except for redistribution of income tax to megacorporations and banks. But considering that these private entities call the political shots, then this would clearly be fascism, which can also be defined as corporate socialism.

The true leftists know damn well that "leftist / progressive legislation" is nothing but band aid solutions to keep the people from rebellion. Germany created social welfare in the 1800s for this very purpose- not because it cared about the people, but because the people would riot without subsistence.

The root problem is capitalism. There is no solution when the capitalist elite create world crises of which they profit from. Capitalism dictates that the rate of profit must always be maintained. The differentiation of capital to the point of absolute disparity leading to total collapse is an inevitability, NOT something that can be avoided with "leftist legislation".



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 04:03 AM
link   

Vovin

Leftist legislation in the USA? Now that is truly shocking. The only two parties in the US are Far Right and Centre Right. There is no real socialism in your country, except for redistribution of income tax to megacorporations and banks. But considering that these private entities call the political shots, then this would clearly be fascism, which can also be defined as corporate socialism.

The true leftists know damn well that "leftist / progressive legislation" is nothing but band aid solutions to keep the people from rebellion. Germany created social welfare in the 1800s for this very purpose- not because it cared about the people, but because the people would riot without subsistence.

The root problem is capitalism. There is no solution when the capitalist elite create world crises of which they profit from. Capitalism dictates that the rate of profit must always be maintained. The differentiation of capital to the point of absolute disparity leading to total collapse is an inevitability, NOT something that can be avoided with "leftist legislation".


You obviously know nothing about the history of the U.S., and once again you are trying to derail the thread further.

There is a big difference between "corporatism/socialism/fascism" and "capitalism with a truly free market"...

Under "corporatist socialism" the elites are the ones who control everything "for the good of all, the good of the country, and their own profit".

Under a true Capitalist nation with a free market, each person has the right to their own property, and no state can confiscate their property or take away their unalienable rights.

Let's keep the thread about what is happening in UKRAINE and what Russia is doing in the area shall we?...


edit on 2-4-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: add comment.



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 04:43 AM
link   
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Oh man, if I had a nickel for every time I've run into some arrogant American on the Internet trying to tell me how stupid I am... It hasn't changed in the last 15 years, that's for sure.

And to constantly accuse me of derailing the thread as you continue this mutual rant in every post you make? Priceless.


Under "corporatist socialism" the elites are the ones who control everything "for the good of all, the good of the country, and their own profit".


Absolute bullsh*t!

You have no clue. Corporate socialism is when corporations know they are too big to fail, so they engage in risky market speculation and loose a lot of money while knowing that the taxpayers will end up paying their tab to keep their corporations afloat.

In no way does "corporate socialism" have to do with the common good. I cannot even fathom how you came up with your definition.


Under a true Capitalist nation with a free market, each person has the right to their own property, and no state can confiscate their property or take away their unalienable rights.


I don't know of any sociopolitical system outside of fascism that allows the state to confiscate personal property.

Private property, ie capital, is different from personal property. Even Marx and Engels clearly writes this in The Communist Manifesto.

But even with these facts, I still don't understand what your point is.


Let's keep the thread about what is happening in UKRAINE and what Russia is doing in the area shall we?...


You're the one who turned this thread into some battle between good capitalist Ukraine and the evil communist Russia. Funny how I suddenly am accused of derailing the thread when I shot down your theory.



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 05:14 AM
link   
After being part of the Soviet Union it's got me beat why they would even contemplate joining the European Union. As for this video, does she think that the democratic legal system isn't corrupt or something?



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 05:25 AM
link   

ElectricUniverse


There is a big difference between "corporatism/socialism/fascism" and "capitalism with a truly free market"...



Fascism
Well, while you are telling us your facts. Why don't you explain to us idiots, why behind the speaker of US Congress, that there are two roman Fasci to the left and right of the chair.Thanks for setting us dullards straight.Jeez we could have been embarassed.



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 07:25 AM
link   

Vovin

Oh man, if I had a nickel for every time I've run into some arrogant American on the Internet trying to tell me how stupid I am... It hasn't changed in the last 15 years, that's for sure.

And to constantly accuse me of derailing the thread as you continue this mutual rant in every post you make? Priceless.


Where the hell did I write that you are stupid?... Again, you are using dirty tactics by derailing the thread more and more. I wrote that you don't know the history of the United States, and by what you wrote it shows to be true. I didn't insult you... You are just making more red herrings because your arguments have no merit. That plus insulting me all the time trying to transform this thread into some "fight club"...

For some reason you seem very willing to try to close down this thread. If I were to give in to your insults by insulting back the thread would be closed, and your job would be done.

There are no coincidences in this world. You keep trying to defend the actions of Russia, and now you show that you are against capitalism altogether. A strange combination since you have been claiming that Russia is capitalist yet you continue to defend them.



Vovin
Absolute bullsh*t!

You have no clue. Corporate socialism is when corporations know they are too big to fail, so they engage in risky market speculation and loose a lot of money while knowing that the taxpayers will end up paying their tab to keep their corporations afloat.

In no way does "corporate socialism" have to do with the common good. I cannot even fathom how you came up with your definition.


I know exactly what is going on. I have read the reports from the UN and what is planned for the United States and the world. BTW, the part about them doing it for "the common good" is what THEY keep saying, and what they keep trying to make people believe.



Vovin
I don't know of any sociopolitical system outside of fascism that allows the state to confiscate personal property.

Private property, ie capital, is different from personal property. Even Marx and Engels clearly writes this in The Communist Manifesto.


More red herrings, and you keep backing the claims of Marx and Engels... Personal property IS private property. It is exactly the same thing. You can't have "personal property" unless it is "private property". No matter how many lies socialists and communists try to spread their handy work is sewn in the history of the 20th and 21st century, with the over 140 million + murdered people, and the millions more imprisoned in gulags, concentration camps, and indoctrination camps.

BTW, I showed already a few times that under socialism and communism "private property is abolished".... But now you are claiming that you don't know of any other socioeconomic systems that would confiscate personal property?... Personal property is something that is yours, that you own, which is exactly what private property is.

Either you are so confused that you have no idea at all of what you are talking about, or there is something else going on with you.



Vovin
You're the one who turned this thread into some battle between good capitalist Ukraine and the evil communist Russia. Funny how I suddenly am accused of derailing the thread when I shot down your theory.


Yes, the discussion is about UKRAINE, Crimea and RUSSIA... Not the U.S as you have been trying to drag this thread into, without mentioning your other tactics like trying to entice an emotional response from me by constantly insulting me...

You keep on dragging this thread out of context, trying to derail it every way you can to the point of insulting me at every turn to try to incite me to insult you back. It's very strange for a person to do this, and use these tactics. It's obvious you have an agenda, and part of that agenda is to derail threads, and turn them into mud pit fights instead of discussing the topic at hand...




edit on 2-4-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: errors.



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 07:49 AM
link   

13th Zodiac

Fascism
Well, while you are telling us your facts. Why don't you explain to us idiots, why behind the speaker of US Congress, that there are two roman Fasci to the left and right of the chair.Thanks for setting us dullards straight.Jeez we could have been embarassed.


Oh God, why do people have to try to derail threads, and more so on subjects they don't seem to be familiar with at all?

The fasci is a symbol of collective ownership by the state/corporation. Either the corporations and government work together, or one takes over the other and implements fascism.



This is fascism.


"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler

(Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)

constitutionalistnc.tripod.com...

This is fascism...


Mussolinis career as a Socialist agitator began at age eighteen as a writer for various left-wing magazines. By 1905, he had been arrested numerous times in Switzerland, France, and Austria for revolutionary agitation and Italian police had opened a dossier which characterized him as impulsive and violent.Although Fascists and Communists alike were anxious to deny it later, Karl Marx was the biggest single influence on Mussolini and he considered Marx the greatest of all theorists of Socialism.” He shared Marx’ opinion on religion and once shocked his audience by daring God to strike him dead.
In 1910, Mussolini was asked by one of the Socialist clubs in Italy to become their political organizer and to edit their small weekly newspaper: La Lotta di Classe (The Class Struggle). For the next two years, with a portrait of Marx hanging on the wall he pounded out radical opinions on every subject under the sun. Catholic priests were “black microbes” and “poisoners of young minds.” He described the army as “a criminal organization designed to protect capitalism and bourgeois society” and urged soldiers to disobey their officers.
Mussolini got his first big break in 1912 when he took over as editor of Avanti!, the official organ of the Italian Socialist Party. Choosing Angelica Balabanoff as his assistant, he quickly rid the paper of the older more moderate writers and eventually more than doubled circulation by aiming at a wider, lower-class readership.
He urged the necessary bloodbathand the physical exterminationof the bourgeoisie through which the proletariat would gaina totality of power.He urged neutrality in 1914 and railed against military budgets which might be used in a war against French or German workers: “Let us have no more talk of battleships, barracks, cannon, at a time when thousands of villages have no schools, roads, electricity, or doctors, but still live tragically beyond the pale of life. War,” thundered Mussolini, “is a prelude to revolution!”
On October 18, 1914, Mussolini suddenly announced in Avanti! that he had been wrong. Neutrality was wrong! It was not fitting for a great nation like Italy to stand aside while Europes destiny was being decided on the battlefield . . . Italy must fight!
...

www.thehistoryforum.com...

Socialists, communists, and fascists, among others, all part of branches of socialism with some small differences have always used the cause "we are doing it for the greater good". And corporations, which are fascist and monopolistic are right besides socialists.

Why in the world would the world elites fund the Russian revolution, among other red revolutions? It isn't merely to make money, but to take control. To control every aspect of people's lives.



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 08:03 AM
link   
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 



There are no coincidences in this world. You keep trying to defend the actions of Russia, and now you show that you are against capitalism altogether. A strange combination since you have been claiming that Russia is capitalist yet you continue to defend them.


Because I'm a realist, not idealist. I am interested in practical global solutions. The Russian state-managed economic model is very efficient and stable compared to Western models, and such a model should be used in my country.


More red herrings, and you keep backing the claims of Marx and Engels... Personal property IS private property.


I keep bringing up Marx and Engels for various reasons. First, I have studied them and Marxism is a subfield in every field of study I've ever done. Secondly, I just so happen to be in a course right now that focuses on an analysis of the first volume of Capital, so this gives me practice.

And private property is not the same as personal property. Personal property means your home (unless your house is communal), your vehicle, your material possessions. Private property refers to privately owned land and capital-infrastructure/equipment. The point to abolishing private property is to separate the capitalists away from the means of production, because the workers are the ones producing the commodities while the capitalists only sell the commodities.


Personal property is something that is yours, that you own, which is exactly what private property is.


Again, this is out of context. Personal property: your personal possessions. Private property: property used for generating capital.

Personal is private per se, but in this context they are different. The communists are not interested in confiscating your toothbrush.


No matter how many lies socialists and communists try to spread their handy work is sewn in the history of the 20th and 21st century, with the over 140 million + murdered people, and the millions more imprisoned in gulags, concentration camps, and indoctrination camps.


Blah blah blah more sensationalist BS that makes no sense and can't be objectively proven.

As an ideology, communism did not kill that many people. The majority died due to rapid industrialization to upgrade the means of production from peasant modes. This happened in both the USSR and China. This was the solution to the uneven development that occurred under imperial serfdom. In Russia, the farms were still peasants tilling the land for lords while the cities had the largest factories in all of Europe. They induced expedited production processes. It was the only way to survive against other empires.

And capitalism is no different. It has killed far more people that 140,000,000. In fact, I've seen that figure for North America alone, but the original population figures of aboriginals here is no conclusive. And the reasons why capitalism has killed are conservative, not progressive. People murdered to take their land, while survivors are enslaved to the capitalist empire. And the mass murder continues as a function of capitalism, while the mass deaths under communism stopped after industrialization slowed down in both USSR and China.


Yes, the discussion is about UKRAINE, Crimea and RUSSIA... Not the U.S as you have been trying to drag this thread into


No, this thread is about the propaganda video posted in the OP, which was exposed as American-produced, for-Americans long before this thread was made.

But speaking of the US and Ukraine... Why is the US flag now being flown at Ukrainian special police HQ?




posted on Apr, 4 2014 @ 04:51 AM
link   

Vovin

Because I'm a realist, not idealist. I am interested in practical global solutions. The Russian state-managed economic model is very efficient and stable compared to Western models, and such a model should be used in my country.
...


Riiight, riiight... Keep claiming that while "showing" that you believe in Marxism, or even Marxist-Leninist ideology... Not to mention backing "the Russian model", the same one which has shown to be willing to kill hundreds of journalists, is willing to murder any defectors who try to tell the rest of the world the reality of Russia... not to mention the re-writing of history to show none other than "Stalin" as "a necessary evil who was in truth a hero"...



Vovin
...
Blah blah blah more sensationalist BS that makes no sense and can't be objectively proven.


You seem to be quoting yourself quite nicely in the above.


Vovin
As an ideology, communism did not kill that many people. The majority died due to rapid industrialization to upgrade the means of production from peasant modes. This happened in both the USSR and China. This was the solution to the uneven development that occurred under imperial serfdom. In Russia, the farms were still peasants tilling the land for lords while the cities had the largest factories in all of Europe. They induced expedited production processes. It was the only way to survive against other empires.
...


Hence the continued attempt by people like you to "rationalize" and dismiss the deaths of 140+ million people, and millions more who have been, and many still are imprisoned in gulags, or concentration camps, re-education/indoctrination camps, etc, etc over a failed ideology which ultimately seeks to oppress and destroy individuality and the human spirit...



Vovin
And capitalism is no different. It has killed far more people that 140,000,000. In fact, I've seen that figure for North America alone, but the original population figures of aboriginals here is no conclusive. And the reasons why capitalism has killed are conservative, not progressive. People murdered to take their land, while survivors are enslaved to the capitalist empire. And the mass murder continues as a function of capitalism, while the mass deaths under communism stopped after industrialization slowed down in both USSR and China.
...


First, of all you are trying to confuse on purpose every ideological and economic system which in the past and present has been used to take away the rights, and lands of people, claiming that it was all because of capitalism and a free market...

Under a true Capitalist and free market system EVERY person has the right to private property, and their rights are not taken away. That is until the government/those in power take over and make "monopolies" which is now wrongly called "privatization" as a further attempt to further confuse the truth.

BTW, in case you didn't know before the Europeans took over most of the "Americas" the natives were fighting amongst themselves, taking lands from each other, etc, etc... The same can be said of Vikings, and every other people on the planet...

I do not condone what the U.S. government did to the native people, but at the same time I know what is to blame and it's not "capitalism and a free market"...



Vovin
No, this thread is about the propaganda video posted in the OP, which was exposed as American-produced, for-Americans long before this thread was made.
...


No, that's what you and others like you who keep "claiming", that it is propaganda... Propaganda would entail hiring actors to act and even lie, while this video was taken of a Ukrainian student who wanted to tell the truth about the situation there...


Vovin
But speaking of the US and Ukraine... Why is the US flag now being flown at Ukrainian special police HQ?


First of all, we don't even know on what date that was taken, or where. Second of all, unlike the Russians who just flew their flag on "foreign land", that is showing both the Ukrainian and U.S. flags, similar on how in other countries the flags of allies are also flown. Third, I don't know how many times I stated the Ukrainian and Crimean people should find their own way instead of relying on any foreign government... Fourth and foremost, the United States hasn't used a free market system and it isn't a Capitalist country for decades since the international bankers and rich families took over the economy of the U.S. in 1913, and have been since then slowly destroying and transforming the country...

Anyway, wanted to save the best for last...


Vovin

Again, this is out of context. Personal property: your personal possessions. Private property: property used for generating capital.
..


Keep trying to confuse words that mean the same thing...


per·son·al [pur-suh-nl] Show IPA

adjective

1. of, pertaining to, or coming as from a particular person; individual; private: a personal opinion.
...

dictionary.reference.com...

Personal IS private...


Vovin
...
Personal is private per se, but in this context they are different. The communists are not interested in confiscating your toothbrush.


Really?... is that why millions of people, including myself, who have lived and experienced communism had to use our fingers and the worse toothpaste, or even soap to brush our teeth under communist systems?...

You can't tell millions of people, or me what socialism and communism are, we lived it.



edit on 4-4-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: errors, and add comments.



posted on Apr, 4 2014 @ 04:56 PM
link   
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


You lost me at "you keep believing in Marxism".

Marxism isn't an ideology; it is an analysis of the capitalist mode of production and the resulting social relations. Marx identified the driver of society by historical analysis that goes far beyond the emergence of capitalism. Marxist analysis essentially is modern social theory. Any article you see, any discussion you hear the phrase "class" in a social context is directly derived from Marx's contribution.

And you think I should take you seriously when you know nothing on this subject? You're nothing but a distraction. Beware the red scare because there's Marxist-Commies everywhere.



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 07:50 AM
link   

DarknStormy
After being part of the Soviet Union it's got me beat why they would even contemplate joining the European Union. As for this video, does she think that the democratic legal system isn't corrupt or something?


She states clearly in the video that they are tired of corrupt "politicians", plural. Meaning all corrupt politicians. She mentions that Ukraine is not the U.S.S.R., because Russia is trying to take back Ukraine. Heck the Russians flew ONLY their flag in Crimea by use of military/mercenary force... Putin introduced a rewriting of history by sacking, and looting the largest depository of knowledge about Stalin's murderous deeds, and has waged a brainwashing campaign in schools, and the media proclaiming that "Stalin's deeds were a necessary evil, and he is a national hero"... That should tell you right there the truth about Putin, yet some people (not talking about you in particular) refuse to want to see it.

I wrote it from the start, Ukrainians should find their own way, and so do the Crimean people, instead of having to rely on Russia, or the EU, or anyone else.

Crimeans should have control over their own territory. If Russia wants to continue using Crimea as a pathway for the pipelines to Europe, the Crimean people should be well paid for that, and they should have the control of their nation, and not Russia...

But alas, history does indeed seem to repeat itself.



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 08:04 AM
link   

Vovin

You lost me at "you keep believing in Marxism".
...


You did?...


Marxism–Leninism is a political ideology combining Marxism (the scientific socialist concepts theorised by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels) and Leninism (Vladimir Lenin's theoretical expansions of Marxism which include anti-imperialism, democratic centralism, and Vanguardist party-building principles).[1] Marxism–Leninism was the official ideology of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and of the Communist International (1919–43), making it the guiding ideology of the world communist movement. As such, it is the most prominent ideology associated with communism.
...

en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, I am aware at the "attempt" to call it "a scientific theory", but under scrutiny it is nothing more than giving an illusion of "equality for all" except anyone who doesn't want to abide by such ideology, and it is an ideology.

Every attempt at using Marx and Engels ideology ended up with socialist and or communist dictatorship... EVERY TIME... Yet you among others refuse to want to accept this fact.

The one not knowing what he is talking about is you. You claim that Putin's thesis/ideas have nothing to do with communism, but you yourself explained that in his thesis he states, and I quote...

"Russian economy would totally recover by taking the Russian resource industry from private owners and putting it back into state control
"...

Putin wants state control, a centralized form of government where the states controls all the means of production and infrastructure, among other things.... I have already shown that is EXACTLY what Marx and Engels explained they wanted to accomplish to attain the "dictatorship of the proletariat."




edit on 5-4-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: errors.



posted on Apr, 7 2014 @ 10:25 PM
link   

ElectricUniverse

Vovin

You lost me at "you keep believing in Marxism".
...


You did?...


Marxism–Leninism is a political ideology combining Marxism (the scientific socialist concepts theorised by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels) and Leninism (Vladimir Lenin's theoretical expansions of Marxism which include anti-imperialism, democratic centralism, and Vanguardist party-building principles).[1] Marxism–Leninism was the official ideology of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and of the Communist International (1919–43), making it the guiding ideology of the world communist movement. As such, it is the most prominent ideology associated with communism.
...

en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, I am aware at the "attempt" to call it "a scientific theory", but under scrutiny it is nothing more than giving an illusion of "equality for all" except anyone who doesn't want to abide by such ideology, and it is an ideology.

Every attempt at using Marx and Engels ideology ended up with socialist and or communist dictatorship... EVERY TIME... Yet you among others refuse to want to accept this fact.

The one not knowing what he is talking about is you. You claim that Putin's thesis/ideas have nothing to do with communism, but you yourself explained that in his thesis he states, and I quote...

"Russian economy would totally recover by taking the Russian resource industry from private owners and putting it back into state control
"...

Putin wants state control, a centralized form of government where the states controls all the means of production and infrastructure, among other things.... I have already shown that is EXACTLY what Marx and Engels explained they wanted to accomplish to attain the "dictatorship of the proletariat."




edit on 5-4-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: errors.


I told you what Marxism is. You provide Wikipedia as a source, which ends up explaining exactly what I said. Then you added Leninism, which is the workers' revolutionary strategy, and claimed I was wrong after you posted something else entirely from what we were even talking about.

And you did this out of desperation, because you are clearly uneducated and ignorant of facts that don't support the agenda that's been shoved in your head. If you don't know what Marxist theory is, or even the clear difference between Marxism and Leninism, then why persist? Maybe you could understand it if you actually read their work, as opposed to getting your facts from Wikipedia. Until you do that, you are as I said before: nothing but a distraction.



new topics

top topics



 
42
<< 9  10  11    13 >>

log in

join