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I am an Ukranian, and this video must be spread around the world. (video)

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posted on Mar, 21 2014 @ 01:38 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


I'm quite aware of why the politburo decided to disband. I am also aware of the source that you posted.

However, that source doesn't explain much of anything. And obviously Russian defectors would state all kinds of theories about their homeland to appease the countries that would grant them amnesty. Sometimes individual people change their views over time and rationalize by turning on those that they have served for so long. It happens everywhere.

But the simple fact of the matter is that it is laughable to assert that the Russians are trying to reclaim ex-Soviet states just for the sake of being a territorial empire. Again, I emphasize that it is absurd to rebuild an empire that would collapse for the same reason that it collapsed before. Do you think that the Russians are really so barbarically stupid to pursue a doomed imperialist policy?

The modern Russian empire does not need to capture other countries to assert its own regional hegemony. It already produces a vast surplus of mineral resources and energy that it is able to politically and economically exert influence over its ex-Soviet neighbours AND much of Europe. Name me another leading world power that can fully sustain itself from resources within their own political (NOT corporate) boundaries and I will be shocked.

The ability to control global resources and commerce is the 21st century world order. Why do you think European powers have been working with the US to change who produces and buys resources from the Middle East? They want to be less dependent on Russian resources and thus be able to counter Russia on a geopolitical level.

Their are already clues as to the future order of world affairs. Countries like Russia, China, Brazil, India hold a lot of cards while countries like the USA and the UK have few cards left. Organizations like the SCO and BRICS are political-economic alliances, with some military cooperation, that rival NATO.

Ukraine is just a failing state where radicalism has fermented due to weak pro-Russian government and strong NATO support in neighbouring countries like Poland. It is easy to blame Russia for a lot of things, but it gets much harder to do so when you research the things that the US has been doing in Europe for the entirety of the Cold War and beyond, such as Operation Gladio.

Westerners focus on demonstrations in Ukraine and cry out about Russian aggression... but they completely ignore how anti-government riots and demonstrations for liberty happen almost every single god damn day in western countries such as Greece, Italy, Spain, France, Israel/Palestine, Brazil, Turkey, and even in the USA itself. Where is the global outcry for democracy regarding these people in these countries? Why is Ukraine such a major focus while the media ignores everything else? It's because there is an agenda dictating the situation in Ukraine.




posted on Mar, 21 2014 @ 01:38 AM
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Agent_USA_Supporter

Putin himself was a KGB officer what of it? What makes u think American presidents weren't agents either?


It isn't just Putin, but pretty much everyone who is or was in a position of power was part of the Russian propaganda machine which is working well and fine to date.

Read again the information provided... How could high ranking Russian officials who have defected, not spies who were sent to deflect the truth, have predicted what would happen decades down the road?


Here, I'll make it easier for you.



...
Golitsyn predicts that the Soviet regime will be stabilized by the creation of spurious, controlled opposition movements and the use of those movements to neutralize genuine internal and external opposition, and that it will encourage communist parties to establish united fronts with socialist parties throughout the world thus increasing Soviet influence in parliaments and trade unions.4
...
Among such previously unthinkable stratagems are the introduction of false liberalization in Eastern Europe and, probably, the Soviet Union, and the exhibition of spurious independence on the part of the regimes in Romania, Czechoslovakia, and Poland."7

Golitsyn predicted the "breakup" of the communist bloc in Eastern Europe as a technique to be used by the Soviet government to entice Europe to move more towards socialism and to align itself eventually with the USSR against the United States.8 The Third World would then join communist Russia and socialist Western Europe against the US and its allies.

...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

People talk a lot about "the western powers influence around the world", but many of those same people want to claim that Russia, or even China can't be doing the very same thing and be part of such conspiracy.

BTW, they are called "international bankers and rich global elites" for a reason, not just because they are from western nations.




edit on 21-3-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: add comments.



posted on Mar, 21 2014 @ 01:58 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


You're pushing this whole Red-Scare conspiracy but I'm telling you now that you would understand this situation so much better if you find a copy of Putin's doctorate thesis and actually read through it. He wrote it in the 1990s and he clearly writes out how Russian economy would totally recover by taking the Russian resource industry from private owners and putting it back into state control (which is what happened) and that the Russian state can assert regional hegemony by exporting resources needed by neighbouring countries (which also Russia has done).

I would provide a link to his thesis but I've never actually found it in the public domain.

Putin had it all together when he went back to university after his KGB career. He was also already high in the political structure at this time. He was a hand picked favorite of the post-USSR government and they conditioned him to be the great leader of Russia. And you know what? The Russian people want this. They like what he did for Russia. They agree with his vision. No other political rival comes close, and this is how western democracy is carried out.
edit on 21-3-2014 by Vovin because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 21 2014 @ 02:08 AM
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reply to post by Vovin
 


Ooh, right, so just because you say so it is so... So I guess just because I say so there must be no conspiracies at all, so why are you in a conspiracy theory website at all? You are just wasting time...

The evidence is there. The great majority of the things that Anatoliy Golitsyn said was planned by the Soviet elites has happened, or is occurring as we speak.

He has been talking about this deception since 1962, but because there were people within the U.S. Government, and many regular people who kept believing "this can't be possible", he was forced to finally disclose this plan in books in 1984, "New Lies for Old", and in 1995 with "The Perestroika Deception."


...
His books[edit]

New Lies for Old[edit]

In 1984, Golitsyn published the book New Lies For Old,[13] wherein he warned about a long-term deception strategy of seeming retreat from hard-line Communism designed to lull the West into a false sense of security, and finally economically cripple and diplomatically isolate the United States. Among other things, Golitsyn stated:
"The 'liberalization' [in the Soviet Union] would be spectacular and impressive. Formal pronouncements might be made about a reduction in the communist party's role; its monopoly would be apparently curtailed."
"If [liberalization] should be extended to East Germany, demolition of the Berlin Wall might even be contemplated."
"The European Parliament might become an all-European socialist parliament with representation from the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. 'Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals' would turn out to be a neutral, socialist Europe."


Angleton and Golitsyn reportedly sought the assistance of William F. Buckley, Jr. (who once worked for the CIA) in writing New Lies for Old. Buckley refused but later went on to write a novel about Angleton, Spytime: The Undoing of James Jesus Angleton.[14]

The Perestroika Deception[edit]

In 1995 he published a book containing purported memoranda attributed to Golitsyn entitled The Perestroika Deception which claimed:
"The (Soviet) strategists are concealing the secret coordination that exists and will continue between Moscow and the 'nationalist' leaders of (the) 'independent' republics."
"The power of the KGB remains as great as ever... Talk of cosmetic changes in the KGB and its supervision is deliberately publicized to support the myth of 'democratization' of the Soviet political system."
"Scratch these new, instant Soviet 'democrats,' 'anti-Communists,' and 'nationalists' who have sprouted out of nowhere, and underneath will be found secret Party members or KGB agents."

...

en.wikipedia.org...

Again, whom does it really help the violence of the "Nationalists" in the former Soviet states?



edit on 21-3-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: errors.



posted on Mar, 21 2014 @ 03:25 AM
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reply to post by Vovin
 


So Putin, as well as other KGB, excuse me "ex-KGB" and Soviet agents have been using tactics that had been discussed before by those in power when Russia and all the "independent states" were called part of the U.S.S.R. It is the same tactic which has been used in other nations such as Venezuela. But I digress, what other countries are doing should be discussed in other threads.

Now, tell me, if Putin wasn't a communist then why would he have stated, several times, after "the fall of the U.S.S.R.", that he missed the old times of "Mother Russia", or that it was a great tragedy?... The fall of a socialist/communist dictatorhisp, or any dictatorihsp should be a celebration, not a "tragedy"...

For example.


...

updated 4/25/2005 2:30:13 PM ET
...
In his annual state of the nation address to parliament and the country’s top political leaders, Putin said the Soviet collapse also was a tragedy for Russians.

First and foremost it is worth acknowledging that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” Putin said.As for the Russian people, it became a genuine tragedy. Tens of millions of our fellow citizens and countrymen found themselves beyond the fringes of Russian territory.

“The epidemic of collapse has spilled over to Russia itself,” he said, referring to separatist movements such as those in Chechnya.
...

www.nbcnews.com...


Not to mention, why would there be a disinformation campaign against the Russian people themselves by not only raiding Human Right Group buildings, notice the S at the end of the word buildings, but by taking by force all the information contained within the largest source of information which contained most of Stalin's repressive and murderous tactics?...



Russia rewriting Josef Stalin's legacy

Archives on dictator seized from human-rights group Memorial

December 17, 2008|By Alex Rodriguez, Tribune correspondent


ST. PETERSBURG, Russia — At first, the purpose behind the midday raid at a human-rights group's office here was murky. Police, some clad in masks and camouflage, cut the electricity to Memorial's offices and demanded to know if any drugs or guns were kept on the premises.

Five hours later, after police had opened every computer and walked out with 11 hard drives, the reason for their visit became clear to Memorial Director Irina Flige.

On the hard drives, a trove of scanned images and documents memorialized Josef Stalin's murderous reign of terror. Diagrams scrawled out by survivors detailed layouts of labor camps. There were photos of Russians executed by Stalin's secret police, wrenching accounts of survival from gulag inmates and maps showing the locations of mass graves.

"They knew what they were taking," Flige said. "Today, the state tries to reconstruct history to make it appear like a long chain of victories. And they want these victories to be seen as justifying Stalin's repressions."

Stalin, the brutal Soviet dictator responsible for the deaths of millions of his citizens, has been undergoing a makeover of sorts in recent years. Russian authorities have reshaped the Georgia-born dictator's image into that of a misunderstood, demonized leader who did what he had to do to mold the Soviet Union into the superpower it became.
...

articles.chicagotribune.com...

Why re-program and brainwash Russians with an intense campaign to re-write "the necessary evils of Stalin" as the Russian government under Putin's command has been doing?...


...
In Russian classrooms, history teachers are guided by a new, government-approved textbook, Alexander Filippov's "Modern History of Russia: 1945-2006," which hails Stalin as an efficient manager who had to resort to extreme measures to modernize the lumbering Soviet agrarian economy.

There were, writes Filippov, "rational reasons behind the use of violence in order to ensure maximum efficiency."
...

articles.chicagotribune.com...

That's a tactic which has been used by socialist/communist dictators since Marx himself wrote, and stated that those in power must "rationalize violence to the people" among other tactics.



posted on Mar, 21 2014 @ 06:21 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


"Putin is a communist"

That pretty much sums up your level of argument. I discuss modern geopolitics, and you're still stuck in the 1950s. Our conversation is done here.

PS: for the bonus round, can you even reference exactly where Marx wrote that line? I assume that by referring to him in your argument that you have studied his works... Right?

edit on 21-3-2014 by Vovin because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 21 2014 @ 07:15 PM
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Vovin
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


"Putin is a communist"

That pretty much sums up your level of argument. I discuss modern geopolitics, and you're still stuck in the 1950s. Our conversation is done here.


What Putin is or isn't can be surmised by looking at the tactics he has been using, and what he has not only stated, but also by his actions and the policies implemented by him and his government.

I have provided evidence for my argument. Meanwhile you just keep claiming that "you don't know what you are talking about" while proclaiming that you know Putin because you have read information about him which "is not in the public domain". This tells me one of four possible outcomes.

One, you really have no idea of what you are saying and are acting simply out of emotions.

Two, You are trying to use the emotions of other people to be the decisive factor in their thinking in a topic such as this one, by making claims that you have some "inside knowledge that is not in the public domain". So you either can't, or won't offer a source to that information, which begs to question how would you even have access to such information if it is not in the public domain? Even information available to academics on matters such as "thesis of important people" is available in the public domain. Unless it has something to do with a secret agency and the information is sensitive and classified in which case it would not be in the public domain.

This in turn also tells me that you are either bragging, since there is no point in you mentioning this "thesis of Putin's that is not in the public domain", since you can't, or won't corroborate such a claim. Or you are inventing this claim and are once again trying to just use people's emotions to be their decisive factor, instead of promoting the use of facts, and what we can learn from the history of the region so that people make a decision based on facts, and not on claims that can't be corroborated.

Three, even "if" it was true that Putin wrote such a thesis "that is not in the public domain" his actions speak louder than such claims. Not to mention that Putin himself has stated how he misses the old days of the U.S.S.R. He has used tactics such as a rewriting of the horrendous deeds of Stalin, and even ordered raids on Human Rights buildings to take most if not all the information about those horrendous deeds, while actively brainwashing the Russian population, including the young, that the horrendous deeds Stalin committed were a "necessary evil". The intimidation done on journalists and other people in Russia and in the independent states who are critics of Putin's policies, and his patsies, many of which have been murdered.

Putin has gone so far as to state that the breakup of the communist bloc/collective dictatorship was a tragedy for the Russian people. Not to mention Putin's involvement in having patsies who work for him like former Ukranian president Viktor Yanukovych, who after being deposed fled immediately to Russia. Yet knowing all of this, and knowing the corruption, fraud, intimidation and murders of so many regular people by putin and his patsies, like Yanukovich, you continue trying to support them for who knows what reason.

Heck, Putin and his government sent a very clear message by the radioactive poisoning and murder of one of his ardent critics living in the UK, Alexander Litvinenko, who was a former officer of the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) and KGB.


...
Subsequent investigations by British authorities into the circumstances of Litvinenko's death led to serious diplomatic difficulties between the British and Russian governments. Unofficially, British authorities asserted that "we are 100% sure who administered the poison, where and how", but they did not disclose their evidence in the interest of a future trial. The main suspect in the case, a former officer of the Russian Federal Protective Service (FSO), Andrey Lugovoy, remains in Russia. As a member of the Duma, he now enjoys immunity from prosecution. Before he was elected to the Duma, the British government tried to extradite him without success.
...

en.wikipedia.org...

With the above murder, Putin and his government pretty much shot two birds with one stone. First, the fact that it was radioactive poisoning is a message that Russia continues to have, and will continue to have nuclear warhead capacities, and they are not afraid to use them. Two, Putin successfully murdered one of his most ardent critics who had inside knowledge of Putin's government in foreign soil. This is a clear message that Putin and his regime are not afraid to murder people even outside of Russia.

There have been over 300 murders or disappearances of journalists in Russia who have been critics of Putin's policies and what has been happening in Russia since 1993.


...
А wide-ranging investigation by the International Federation of Journalists into the deaths of journalists in Russia was published in June 2009. At the same time the IFJ launched an online database[2][3] which documents over three hundred deaths and disappearances since 1993. Both the report Partial Justice[4] (Russian version: Частичное правосудие[5]) and the database depend on the information gathered in Russia over the last 16 years by the country's own media monitors, the Glasnost Defense Foundation and the Center for Journalism in Extreme Situations.
...

en.wikipedia.org...

An example of one of the many murdered Russian journalists who have been ardent critics of Putin, and his policies includes.



The assassination of Anna Politkovskaya (born 1958), the Russian journalist, writer and human rights activist, took place on 7 October 2006. She was well known for her opposition to the Chechen conflict and criticism of Russian President Vladimir Putin.[1][2] She authored several books about the Chechen wars, as well as Putin's Russia, and received numerous prestigious international awards for her work. Her murder, which occurred on Vladimir Putin's birthday, was widely perceived as a contract killing, sparking a strong international reaction.
...

en.wikipedia.org...

Fourth, you work for the Russian government in some capacity.

No one in their right mind would support and condone the actions of Putin, yet you keep doing it even after claiming that you know the situation well.




Vovin
PS: for the bonus round, can you even reference exactly where Marx wrote that line? I assume that by referring to him in your argument that you have studied his works... Right?


It is all over the Communist Manifesto and his writings. Marx wanted to depose a dictatorship, and replace it with another dictatorship through violent deeds.


...The purposeless massacres perpetrated since the June and October events, the tedious offering of sacrifices since February and March, the very cannibalism of the counterrevolution will convince the nations that there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror.
...

www.marxists.org...

I do not condone the massacres perpetrated by the rich, but violence should be a last resort. A new form of government based on violence, in which the need for constant violent conflict with any other people will only cause more deaths and oppression.

We only have to look at the death toll caused by Communist and socialist regimes in the 20th century, and even what is going on today in nations that are embracing these policies of Marx and Engels.


...
In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been killed in all this century's international and domestic wars. Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone--one communist country-- well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it.
...

www.hawaii.edu...

Not only does the philosophy of Marx and Engels call for "constant violence" against anyone who makes more money than the poorest people, but such philosophies also want to control every aspect of people lives including what people think, and their beliefs.



posted on Mar, 21 2014 @ 09:19 PM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Why should I have to disprove that Putin is a communist? In order for me to even start such an arbitrary argument, I would have to lecture on what communism actually is in theory and practice, what ideology the Soviet Union actually followed, what course Russia has been taking, etc etc. there's no point since we would never even agree.

Let's be honest here: people throw around ideological rhetoric all the time, and most people have no idea what they're even saying other than knowing that their words will cause a reaction. For instance, people comparing Putin to Hitler. Well, why? What policies is Putin enforcing that Hitler enforced? What paradigm of socioeconomic thought are we stuck in?

And the people claim he is communist. To most people, communism and nazi fascism are synonymous, and you can even throw terrorist in there too. So how is Putin's socioeconomic policies communist in nature? Is Russia a classless society where the workers own the means of production? No? Then how is Russia communist?

The very fact that Putin is president of the Russian Federation blows your whole "Putin is communist" theory straight out of the water.

Russia has a democratic electoral system. Russia has strong capitalists and is integrated in globalization. The key Russian industries are state-controlled and follow state-directives. Russia is a hybrid capitalist/state industry model. It somewhat resembles Japan, China, and Norway.

So please explain to me how Russia is communist, because none of your sources of a secret deep state in Russia explain how Russia is communist when modern Russia's society and economy are anything but communist.

And I already gave you a source. I told you to read Putin's very own writings on his strategic plans for Russia. There's nothing communist about it.



posted on Mar, 21 2014 @ 09:28 PM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


As for your comments on Putin's thesis- all rediculous speculation.

I told you that I've never found it in the public domain. I have read it in an academic publication, which I accessed through means other than the interweb. Not all world leaders publish their grand schemes for the world to easily access, but I highly recommend finding such works anyway, merely for the insight.

In fact, just the way that Putin's thesis was published provides insight into who he is as a leader, and what kind of exclusive crowd he wants to read his work. Another example is Stephen Harper, who's thesis is easily found on Google, with the content reflecting the views of the investor class who should stumble upon it.

PS: I don't even want to touch your totally uneducated comments on Marx. You ever read books before? You do know that communists existed before Marx started writing economic philosophy, right? Marx and Engels wrote The Communist Manifesto in their late 20s, and they describe the communists alongside other social movements. Capital vol 1 was not around for decades after that.
edit on 21-3-2014 by Vovin because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 22 2014 @ 06:51 AM
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reply to post by Vovin
 


You just simply can't disprove it because it is what he is... I know far better than you what communism is. I lived it, unlike you. Unlike you I was spoon feed the teachings of Marx, and Lenin. Unlike you I saw and experienced what happens when a country, and it's people embrace communism.

I learned the hard way that communist and socialist ideology in general are just tools for some people who become the elite, people who get all the power. People like you can't see what's in front of you even if it slapped you in the face.

You claim, like so many clueless people who think the same thing, that under socialism the workers own the means of production when it's quite the contrary. When even socialist and communist websites clearly state the contrary and the doctrines of socialism and communism are contradictory.

In case you didn't know under true socialism and communism private property is abolished. So how can the people own the means of production when they can't own it?...

Heck, let me once again show how clueless and wrong people like you are.

This is directly from a well known socialist website. The so called "Website of the Party for Socialism and liberation"...


...
Myth #1: Socialists want to take away your property

This myth confuses private property with personal property. When socialists talk about the abolition of private property, they are referring to the socialization of the means of production—the resources and equipment that create wealth. Working people do not own this type of property—which is why we have to work to survive.
...

www.pslweb.org...

Did you not understand the above clearly enough?... The means of production is NOT owned by the people, even when socialists and communists proclaim that it does. You can only control something if you own it.

Socialist and communist ideology, alongside fascism, try to confuse people by proclaiming one thing while in fact the opposite is what happens.

In that website, as well as all others which deal with these ideologies they try to confuse people by proclaiming that "private property" is not the same as "personal property"... But the fact is that personal property and private property are the same thing. In order for any person to own "personal property" it has to be "private property"... You have to be able to control it, but under these ideologies the people do not have any control.

There is an illusion of control, and an illusion of giving power to all the people, but it is just an illusion. Instead a group of people proclaim to be the voice of the workers and they become the controllers and owners of everything. The means of production is nationalized/socialized, or as it is now also called "privatized" and given control over to the elite.

Under socialism and communism ideology people are told that there will be equality for all, but that in order to have that equality, EVERYONE must give up their freedom and must put away their "selfish" individuality.

Socialists, fascists, and communists who believe wholeheartedly in these branches of socialism try to impart a sense of guilt on people to force them to accept these ideologies... The collective always comes first. the collective comes before your rights, your freedom, or those of your family.

Under socialism and communism there is no room for "individuality", everyone is part of a collective, and as such everyone must give up their rights. The people essentially become slaves to the will of the collective which is decided by "the voice of the workers" which happens to be the top brass who took control by telling lies and using deceit.

All we have to do to understand what socialism, fascism and communism lead to is to look at the death toll, the gulags, concentration camps and "reprogramming camps" ... In the name of "the good of the collective" individuality is stripped away, and by doing so in reality you only lose all your rights and freedom. Everyone loses their rights and freedoms.

History doesn't lie. The deeds of socialism, fascism and communism left the mark with the murder of 140-150 million people in total, if not more, in just 80 years... And millions more who were imprisoned because they dares to want to have their own voice. Because they dared to be individuals instead of letting the collective control everything.

The truth is that when anyone, or any group of people own everything they become dictators.

Individuality must always exist and be let free, as long as it doesn't take away the rights and freedom of anyone else, if rights and freedom are to be accomplished. But the ideologies of socialism, fascism and communism, among others, seek to repress and control individuality in favor for just the collective. The collective comes above all, when that should be an option for every single person to make on their own instead of being forced to "do the will of the collective."

Anyway, I showed "proof" that Putin is following communist doctrines which are really just deceitful doctrines, and all you do is try to dismiss the evidence without showing proof to back your arguments...

Putin is reviving Stalin's legacy by rewriting history and brainwashing the Russian people to make them believe "his deeds were a necessary evil for the good of the collective"... That's what true socialism and all it's branches, which include communism and fascism are. You must "give up your rights and freedom to become part of the collective."

Yes, we should be able to live together in communities but allowing individuality to exist. Not having to sacrifice individuality, Human Rights, or the freedom of any individual as long as they don't harm or infringe on the rights and freedom of others.



edit on 22-3-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: add comments.



posted on Mar, 22 2014 @ 07:34 AM
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Vovin


As for your comments on Putin's thesis- all rediculous speculation.

I told you that I've never found it in the public domain. I have read it in an academic publication, which I accessed through means other than the interweb. Not all world leaders publish their grand schemes for the world to easily access, but I highly recommend finding such works anyway, merely for the insight.

In fact, just the way that Putin's thesis was published provides insight into who he is as a leader, and what kind of exclusive crowd he wants to read his work.
...


Again, just because you say so, it must be so... No evidence whatsoever is provided by you... What Putin is as a leader can be ascertained by the fact that he is not only rewriting history and trying to erase all the murders committed by Stalin. But he has been even brainwashing the Russian people by spoon feeding them with lies that "Stalin's deeds were a necessary evil for the good of the collective"...

Even when I showed proof of this you continue to claim the contrary...


Vovin
PS: I don't even want to touch your totally uneducated comments on Marx. You ever read books before? You do know that communists existed before Marx started writing economic philosophy, right? Marx and Engels wrote The Communist Manifesto in their late 20s, and they describe the communists alongside other social movements. Capital vol 1 was not around for decades after that.
edit on 21-3-2014 by Vovin because: (no reason given)


I have read plenty of books, but this argument of yours now is to use a straw man and by attacking me instead of showing "proof" for your arguments and discussing the argument...

So first you try to derail the thread by asking "where did Marx wrote that?" showing clearly who is the "totally uneducated person", and now you are trying to once again twist your argument around by making more asinine arguments?...

It is all over the writings of Marx that "there must always exist a violent revolution and control in order for peace to exist"...



The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism.


Karl Marx quotes (German political Philosopher and revolutionary, 1818-1883)


What the above clearly means is that there must be no opposition from anyone to socialism... How do you achieve "the absence of opposition to socialism"?... By not allowing dissenting voices. But each person, each one of us is an individual who has different ideals, different dreams and goals. When you try to control people's ideals, their dreams and goals you are trying to control their individuality...








edit on 22-3-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: errors.



posted on Mar, 22 2014 @ 07:40 AM
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ElectricUniverse
First of all I am not Ukranian, but this is the title of the video as an Ukranian woman says at the start of the video and it shows what has been happening there.

For a month now I have been debating whether or not to post this simply because I didn't want to get into a heated discussion, but this is the truth.

A search of the website for this video didn't show any results, but I could be wrong. I found the video thanks to a cousin of mine and his wife, who is Ukranian, and they are living in Spain. In fact I was just watching my cousin's webpage and saw again the video and decided "why the heck not?"

There are a lot of threads in these forums about the situation in Ukraine and Crimea, but I noticed there is a lot of misinformation and some people are once again claiming that "the Americans and bankers are behind the riots/protests" when in fact is quite the contrary.



The Ukranian government was being run by one of Putin's patsies, President Viktor Yanukovych, who shortly after being deposed ran away to Russia with tail between his knees and is still wanted in the Ukraine for ordering the police and military to open fire on protesters and killing a lot of people.

The corruption in the government, and the fact that Ukranians do not want to be part of Russia and want to be independent is what sparked the protests and riots.

BTW, if you think that Russia has no part in the control of Crimea, you better think twice after reading what has been happening there.


Conflict fears rise after pro-Russian gunmen seize Crimean parliament


Harriet Salem in Simferopol, Shaun Walker in Kiev, and Luke Harding


The Guardian, Thursday 27 February 2014


Gunmen storm Crimea's regional administrative complex in Simferopol and hoist Russian flag above parliament building

Fears of a major regional conflict in Crimea pitting Russia against the west intensified on Thursday after pro-Russian gunmen seized the regional government and parliament building in a well co-ordinated military operation, while similar groups were on Friday morning controlling access to the airports of Simferopol and Sevastopol.

Early on Friday morning about 50 armed gunman reportedly marched into Simferopol's airport after arriving in Kamaz trucks. They first cordoned off the domestic terminal and then moving on to other areas. Russia Today described them as similarly dressed and equipped to the "local ethnic Russian 'self-defence squads'" that seized the parliament and government buildings.
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www.theguardian.com...

The Russian government was the one controlling the Ukrainian government, and has taken over and is controlling Crimea so that the people do not vote to be part of the European Union.

Anyway, no matter what your opinion is I hope you at least take the time to watch the video, which has subtitles in Spanish but was recorded in English.

Here is another video about the protests from February 22, 2014. (WARNING THERE ARE SOME VERY GRAPHIC IMAGES IN THE VIDEO, as you can see from the still picture in the video below)



I am posting these videos and info to support the rights of the Ukranian and Crimean people, as well as my cousin and his wife's efforts to show the real situation of what is happening in the region.


edit on 16-3-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: Correct errors and add comment.


Propaganda garbage!!!! Stick a nice looking girl in front of a camera and people will believe anything. What about the intercepted phone calls! The USA started this no matter what anybody say's. Once again PROPAGANDA GARBAGE.



posted on Mar, 23 2014 @ 05:59 AM
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DrunkYogi

Propaganda garbage!!!! Stick a nice looking girl in front of a camera and people will believe anything. What about the intercepted phone calls! The USA started this no matter what anybody say's. Once again PROPAGANDA GARBAGE.


...Beauty is not a reason to proclaim "propaganda"... When are some people going to learn this?... As for your claims of "intercepted calls", you will have to provide evidence about it, what the calls were about, etc. A claim is a claim is a claim... I am pretty sure people in Ukraine, and other countries call family and friends in the U.S.A. and other countries... I find it ironic how some people always want to claim "propaganda, and the U.S.A. is behind these movements" when such movements contradict the ideals and beliefs of some...



posted on Mar, 24 2014 @ 06:22 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


You are absolutely 100% full of BS. And I sincerely mean that. You clearly have no idea what communism or socialism actually mean. Everything you are writing is indicative of somebody who has never read Marx or Lenin, because you have zero concept of their actual theories. You may know some political terms, but you absolutely fail at explaining the political science behind those terms.

In fact, you're so clueless that you clearly state that you do not understand the simple concept that the terms "socialism" or "communism" are names of specific socioeconomic theories, products of social thought. How can you honestly sit there an say "oh well you may think that socialism means that workers own the means of production but you are wrong". BS! The only thing wrong here is your inane inability to understand political science to such a degree that you can actually analyze politics yourself to determine what the actual system is INSTEAD of what the system labels itself.

You get what I'm saying? Just because what you saw in a "socialist" place was not actually socialism, does not mean you can just change the scientific definition of socialism to reflect what you saw. Ever think that maybe there was something other than socialism going on but they only just called it socialism?
edit on 24-3-2014 by Vovin because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 27 2014 @ 03:41 AM
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Vovin

You are absolutely 100% full of BS. And I sincerely mean that. You clearly have no idea what communism or socialism actually mean. Everything you are writing is indicative of somebody who has never read Marx or Lenin, because you have zero concept of their actual theories. You may know some political terms, but you absolutely fail at explaining the political science behind those terms.
...


Really?... hum, let's see, who must be "full of BS"? The guy who keeps backing systems which after 80+ years have shown nothing but oppressive/dictatorial FAILURES with socialism and communism, or the one who has EXPERIENCED life under a Marxist-Leninist system and was fed all the BS people like you want to repeat?... Humm, I wonder... Go ahead and take your time, and don't give me that crap about "oooh, but they haven't been really tried'... That's the same old BS storyline that has been told in every nation that embraced these "socialeconomic" ideologies to become nothing more than oppressive dictatorships with more massacres/murders committed in about 80 years than in who knows how many centuries done by all "other conflicts and wars" added together...



posted on Mar, 27 2014 @ 04:09 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


You are such an amateur. I say that you lack any education in the things you claim, and you reply that I am supporting failed systems.

The original argument that went off topic is when you started claiming that Russia is secretly communist and I stated that this was impossible because Russia is a capitalist country. Then you basically made it clear that, in your mind, the definitions of political ideology are not based in long-standing social theory, but rather in what you claim to have personally seen.

So in other words, you throw around ideological labels without any clue as to what defines those labels.

And for your information, I'm a realist. I am not ignorant enough to choose an ideology as if it were a religion and waste my life crusading other ideologies. I examine human history and calculate future goals that must be worked on in the present, for the ultimate survival of the human race. You can bemoan any ideology you like, but the fact is that everything that has happened up until now in the course of human history has, as a matter of fact, been instrumental in creating the current situation. The mere fact that something happened does not make it wrong or right if we choose to accept reality as it is before us now- people like myself always gauge events that have happened on how they will affect the status quo continuum (ie, the future).

So you still want to sit there and call me something I'm not?



posted on Mar, 27 2014 @ 08:47 PM
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Vovin
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


You are such an amateur. I say that you lack any education in the things you claim, and you reply that I am supporting failed systems.

The original argument that went off topic is when you started claiming that Russia is secretly communist and I stated that this was impossible because Russia is a capitalist country. Then you basically made it clear that, in your mind, the definitions of political ideology are not based in long-standing social theory, but rather in what you claim to have personally seen.
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And more ad hominem attacks because you have no counter argument whatsoever ...

Russia is capitalist?... really?... Knowing the fact that putin and his regime are trying to re-write the history of STALIN, and actively brainwashing the people by claming he was a hero who "just had to do the horrendous deeds he did because it was a necessary evil", meanwhile raiding HUMAN RIGHT BUILDINGS which had the most information on such horrendous deeds. The over 300 murders of Russian journalists who had been critical of Putin. The successful assassination by using radioactive isotope of former officer of the Russian FSB secret service who specialized in tackling organized crime, Alexander Litivenko.

The fact that Russia is controlling the job market not only in Russia, but in former member states to use as a tool for their end goal. The fact that even back in the 1960s high ranking Russian members of the KGB, and other intelligence officers who have defected and explained their end goal "which is happening exactly as such defectors stated", etc, etc... But Russia is a free country and capitalist?... Please... They are just USING capitalism to get credits, to have a better, and stronger military and get more control.

Heck, the United Russia party, the current ruling party is based on "centrism, statism, and conservatism" based on the old Russian model. A central conservative state, such a state in Russia is based on the old and only "U.S.S.R." and this can be clearly ascertained by the actions taken by Putin and the Russian government.



...
Golitsyn predicts that the Soviet regime will be stabilized by the creation of spurious, controlled opposition movements and the use of those movements to neutralize genuine internal and external opposition, and that it will encourage communist parties to establish united fronts with socialist parties throughout the world thus increasing Soviet influence in parliaments and trade unions.4
...
Among such previously unthinkable stratagems are the introduction of false liberalization in Eastern Europe and, probably, the Soviet Union, and the exhibition of spurious independence on the part of the regimes in Romania, Czechoslovakia, and Poland."7

Golitsyn predicted the "breakup" of the communist bloc in Eastern Europe as a technique to be used by the Soviet government to entice Europe to move more towards socialism and to align itself eventually with the USSR against the United States.8 The Third World would then join communist Russia and socialist Western Europe against the US and its allies.

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www.umd.umich.edu...


Vovin
So in other words, you throw around ideological labels without any clue as to what defines those labels.
...


Without a clue?... really?... You are the one who clearly showed not to even know that Marx's and Engel's ideology are based on formenting a "VIOLENT proletariat revolution" and to keep such "VIOLENT revolution" ongoing to stifle any and all opposition to socialism/communism...

But you go ahead and keep trying to derail the thread by using ad hominem attacks all the time and not corroborating at all your claims...

I do not condone the practices of feudalistic societies, or even the new form of statism by introducing corporations which control the means of production through monopolies. But going back to an even more repressive "socioeconomic system" is not the answer.


edit on 27-3-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: correct errors.



posted on Mar, 28 2014 @ 09:56 PM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


You are brainwashed if you are trying to tell me that an imperialist country engaging in politics to protect economic and strategic assets from falling into the hands of a rival empire is a communist endeavour. You obviously haven't read any of Lenin's work, since he describes this process as a function of finance capitalism in several of his most popular writings.

Ukraine owed Russia billions in borrowed money to buy Russian fuel (economic colonization, a function of finance capitalism). The new government just pushed a deal to borrow billions from the IMF in austerity measures that will put Ukraine within economic territorial control of the west, specifically the EU (economic colonization). This is the classical struggle between capitalist empires that has been going on for over 300 years.

So why did you bring up Marx and Communism in this discussion again?

As for me not "collaborating my facts", well, I have a formal education on this subject. I've read books. What about you?
edit on 28-3-2014 by Vovin because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2014 @ 10:00 PM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 





I find it ironic how some people always want to claim "propaganda, and the U.S.A. is behind these movements" when such movements contradict the ideals and beliefs of some...


There are majority of Syrians, Libyans, Serb Christians whom will largely disagree with you that the USA is not behind these "movements" as the majority of those people believe that USA is behind them all.




when such movements contradict the ideals and beliefs of some...

Go into Serbia now and come back by telling us if such ideals and beliefs of some are actual there or even Iraq for that matter.





Beauty is not a reason to proclaim "propaganda"... When are some people going to learn this?..


Sure it is the same way as they used a child to portray how children are suffering in the Syrian war thats propaganda to. A child in an non waring country would never understand the suffering of a waring country. Unless the AD backers have trained the child how to act for the ad.

Beauty is also being used by the majority of western news outlets including FOX News.
edit on 28-3-2014 by Agent_USA_Supporter because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2014 @ 10:12 PM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


PS: Marx did not advocate a violent uprising. Instead, he pointed out (in the section "Primitive Accumulation" in Das Kapital) that every shift in the mode of production is exemplified by the hostile accumulation of assets and transformation into a new paradigm of social order. He describes this process as happening when slavery shifted to serfdom, when serfdom shifted to capitalism. He describes the next social revolution to be violent based on historical prerogative. And really, do you think that the capitalists will simply hand over their capital to their workers?



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