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Russia downs US drone *Breaking*

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posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 06:20 AM
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VirusGuard

pirhanna

acmpnsfal
reply to post by tallcool1
 

They technically have a right to be there under old Ukrainian laws, but the new government emerging no longer follows the old law Putin refuses to acknowledge it though. And if you really think hes all about protecting Russians you are naieve.


The new government wasn't elected, doesn't preside over eastern Ukraine and ousted the elected government by force. By any western logic, the new "government" in western Ukraine is illegitimate. [except when it's not convenient, right?]



Yes agree 100% and this is making a lot of people in Europe question just why we have american military bases all over the place.


I think some people should stop reading RT and actually read the Ukrainian Constitution for themselves, which clearly spells out how the President can be removed, as well as who has the authority to change the Constitution. All was done legally and in full compliance of Ukrainian Constitution.

As for the tripe about America and its Military - feel free to try and test it if you think we are that bad. The last time Russia took that type of pounding was when the Nazis were beating on the door to Moscow. Had it not been for the West Russia would have been lost. Russia likes to spout off a lot, as they did during the cold war, yet never could pull it together.

If they could the Soviet Union would not have collapsed. Under Putin, we are seeing the end of Russia.

Thank God the winter came, otherwise you would be speaking German. Who will help Russia this time if they open up Pandora's box? Certainly not the schtizo paranoid Putin.
edit on 15-3-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 06:33 AM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


"All was done legally and in full compliance of Ukrainian Constitution."

So bringing in snipers to shoot people on your own side so that the USA can come in is all legal and banning a democratic votes on Sunday is all legal right.

Sorry but that sounds like double speak to me, day is night type thinking.

The USA also has a constitution that allows the people to take control back from a corrupt government so it's good to know you and me both like having these constitution around or did I just break one of these laws by pointing it out.

Fog of war my friend, don't be fooled



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 06:47 AM
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AnAbsoluteCreation
Link



Moscow (AFP) - A United States surveillance drone has been intercepted above the Ukranian region of Crimea, a Russian state arms and technology group said Friday.

"The drone was flying at about 4,000 metres (12,000 feet) and was virtually invisible from the ground. It was possible to break the link with US operators with complex radio-electronic" technology, said Rostec in a statement.

The drone fell "almost intact into the hands of self-defence forces" added Rostec, which said it had manufactured the equipment used to down the aircraft, but did not specify who was operating it.


This is pretty huge.

Was Crimea annexed yet? Would this be considered Russia territory?

I will add more as I research that thread. ATS thread

This is getting to the point of no return. This is a huge statement by Russia. I am now convinced that this will continue to escalate.

Damn. I hope this isn't the beginning of, dare I say, WWIII.....

AAC
edit on 14-3-2014 by AnAbsoluteCreation because: (no reason given)

edit on 3/14/2014 by tothetenthpower because: --Mod Edit--Cut down on EXternal content.



What are we going to do? Attack Russia over an internal boarder war? That's like Russia attacking the US if and when say, Texas decides to annex itself. Preposterous! Russia would kill hundreds of thousands us soldiers and it would only end with a nuclear exchange. The US is powerless against this boarder dispute. Let it go.



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 06:49 AM
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VirusGuard
"All was done legally and in full compliance of Ukrainian Constitution."

Yup, per Ukrainian constitution.



VirusGuard
So bringing in snipers to shoot people on your own side so that the USA can come in is all legal and banning a democratic votes on Sunday is all legal right.

Claims are one thing. Support this claim with actual fact and you have an argument.



VirusGuard
Sorry but that sounds like double speak to me, day is night type thinking.

Double speak is when a person makes a claim, like Snipers being brought in to shoot protestors in an effort to undermine the president of Ukraine to remove him from power, and then, when challenged to produce the evidence to support the claims, they start changing the topic of conversation, like invoking the Us and what would it take for them to do such a thing.

Support the claim with facts.

Doublespeak would also be where Russia states it has no military inside Crimea, except for the fact Russian military has been interviewed and stated they are Russian Military units (not Ukrainian / Crimean self defense forces).

In that instance you move from doublespeak to a flat out lie - "Lie" - see Putin / Lavrov comments for further examples.



VirusGuard
The USA also has a constitution that allows the people to take control back from a corrupt government so it's good to know you and me both like having these constitution around or did I just break one of these laws by pointing it out.

Actually it does not state that at all, so if you are going to make a claim, you should know what you are talking about. The ability to remove our President can occur within the specified guidelines of our Constitution, just as the Ukraine Parliament removed the Ukrainian President per their constitution.

Simply ignoring it, or making claims about it that are not true, again, do not support your position / argument and only reinforces the fact that your attempt is to do nothing more than make claims you cant support and hope others don't fact check you - Something that is occurring more frequently now with Putin and Lavrov and now with you in this forum.



VirusGuard
Fog of war my friend, don't be fooled

Whose the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows?

Show me evidence and we can talk. absent that, accusations are just that, and are often used in a fog of war to prevent the truth from being spoken, which would require one side to stop any and all foreign media. I can access Russia media as well as Asian, ME, African and US media. Can the same be said for people in Crimea and Russia?

Nope - why? Putin had them all shut off, and has been replacing news managers with people loyal to his administration so the lies can come forth more easily.

As for being fooled then maybe you and some others should spend more time researching facts and less time pushing Putins BS justifications for an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation. All you have to do is look at Putins statements from the moment he started this mess up to now, and you will see he has given a half dozen different reasons for taking the action he did.

The UN has told Russia several times now to produce the evidence to support their claims, which they have failed to do.

indeed, don't be fooled.






To bad he never watched the trilogy all the way to the end... He might have learned a valuable lesson.


Putin, by his actions, is singlehandedly forcing the very situation he is concerned about, NATO expansion. Ukraine met its obligations under NATO in order to join as a member back in 2010.

Absent Russia capitulation in Crimea, I say NATO should VOTE now and admit them immediately. If that is what it is going to take to preserve the peace from a deluded imbecile who is bent on restoring the Soviet Union then do it. Better to face off now than 50 years down the road.



Now, do we see why idiotic claims on who would win a war are absolutely asinine for consideration?
If a war occurs, NO ONE will be a winner and EVERYONE will be a loser, with civilians on all fronts bearing the brunt.
edit on 15-3-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 07:03 AM
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wrkn4livn
What are we going to do? Attack Russia over an internal boarder war? That's like Russia attacking the US if and when say, Texas decides to annex itself. Preposterous! Russia would kill hundreds of thousands us soldiers and it would only end with a nuclear exchange. The US is powerless against this boarder dispute. Let it go.


Its not an internal border war. Ukraine is a sovereign nation as is Russia. Crimea is NOT sovereign, they are an autonomous area inside Ukraine and are a legal part of Ukraine. The Soviet Union made sure of that in the 1950's when Crimea was given to Ukraine.

Russia invaded a sovereign nation for territorial gain and nothing more.

Surely, if Russia and others wishes to argue they have a right to do what they did then doesn't Turkey have a right to refuse transit of stolen Ukrainian naval vessels / Russian naval vessels? The agreement allows Turkey to limit military assets transiting their territory.

Would Russia then have a right to invade Turkey?

For some of the others -
Source - Office of the President Constitution of Ukraine - English
United Nations - Documents / Publications / Treaties
Constitution of Ukraine - Title X The Autonomous Republic of Crimea

Article 134. The Autonomous Republic of Crimea shall be an integral constituent part of Ukraine and shall resolve issues relegated to its authority within the frame of its reference, determined by the Constitution of Ukraine.
Article 137 and 138 are the "can do's" for Crimea - if you notice what Crimea / Russia is doing violates the Ukrainian Constitution.


Constitution of Ukraine - Title III Elections. Referendum

Article 73. Alterations to the territory of Ukraine shall be resolved exclusively by the All-Ukrainian referendum.



Constitution of Ukraine - Title XIII Making Amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine

Article 154. A draft law on making amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine may be submitted to the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by the President of Ukraine or by the people’s deputies of Ukraine comprising at least one-third of the constitutional membership of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

Article 155. A draft law on making amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine, except for Title I General Principles, Title III Elections, Referendum, and Title XIII Making Amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine, previously adopted by the majority of the constitutional membership of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, shall be deemed adopted, if at least two-thirds of the constitutional members of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine vote in its favour at the succeeding regular session of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

Article 156. A draft law on making amendments to Title I General Principles, Title III Elections, Referendum, and Title XIII Making Amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine, shall be submitted to the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by the President of Ukraine, or by not less than two-thirds of the constitutional membership of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, provided that it is adopted by at least two-thirds of the constitutional members of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, be approved by an All-Ukrainian referendum called by the President of Ukraine.

Resubmission of a draft law on making amendments to Titles I, III and XIII of this Constitution, addressing the same issue, shall be possible only at a succeeding convocation of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

Article 157. The Constitution of Ukraine shall not be amended, if the amendments foresee the abolition or restriction of human and citizen rights and freedoms, or if they are aimed at the liquidation of the independence or violation of the territorial integrity of Ukraine.

The Constitution of Ukraine shall not be amended under the conditions of martial law or a state of emergency.

Article 158. The draft law on making amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine, having been considered by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine and failing to be adopted, may be submitted to the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine no sooner than in one year from the day of the adoption of the decision on this draft law.

Within the term of its powers, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine shall not amend twice the same provisions of the Constitution of Ukraine.

Article 159. A draft law on making amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine shall be considered by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine upon the availability of an opinion of the Constitutional Court of Ukraine on the conformity of such draft law with the requirements of Articles 157 and 158 of this Constitution.
When you read their Constitution, it clearly spells out how things work, including how to remove a President and how to amend the Constitution, which does not need Presidential sign off. If people have issues with the Ukrainian Government Website being used as a source, we can always head over to the UN Website where its in their repository.



[align=center]Source - Office of the President Constitution of Ukraine - English[/align]

Quick Link - Ukrainian Constitution in English


Title I General Principles
Title II Human and Citizen Rights, Freedoms and Duties
Title III Elections. Referendum
Title IV The Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine
Title V The President of Ukraine
Chapter VI The Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine. Other Executive Authorities
Title VII Public Prosecution
Title VIII Justice
Title IX Territorial Structure of Ukraine
Title X The Autonomous Republic of Crimea
Title XI Local Self-Government
Title XII The Constitutional Court of Ukraine
Title XIII Making Amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine
Title XIV Final Provisions
Chapter XV Transitional Provisions

2014 UNHCR regional operations profile - Eastern Europe| Overview |Ukraine



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 07:34 AM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 

How could you say something like that with straight face really?
Last time I checked the violent overthrowing of one countrie's legitimate elected leadership is classified as TERRORISM.
Having said that, it's logical for me to think that you're in support of terrorists.
Please, next time don't use law to back up your statements because clearly you don't know how law works in the first place.



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 07:37 AM
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zilebeliveunknown
reply to post by Xcathdra
 

How could you say something like that with straight face really?
Last time I checked the violent overthrowing of one countrie's legitimate elected leadership is classified as TERRORISM.
Having said that, it's logical for me to think that you're in support of terrorists.
Please, next time don't use law to back up your statements because clearly you don't know how law works in the first place.


The "law" in question, had you actually read it, is the Ukrainian Constitution. Something I notice you and others ignore since it does not support the false claim of a coup.

Thank you for making my point though. When information comes out that doesn't support the position, you attack the poster. Tell you what, Ill give you a chance to redeem yourself. Please point out where the actions of the Ukrainian government are "illegal" using their constitution to remove the President. OR reinstating the 2004 Constitution.

Please show me where the actions in Crimea are within the Ukrainian constitution (leaving Ukraine).
Please show me where Crimea's actions by their "government" are lawful under Ukrainian law.


After all, its the exact same document Putin is using to try and support his failed argument. Those sections were also highlighted above in my post, which I again think you just ignored.

Also, just to clarify - the overthrow of a government is not terrorism, its a coup. In this case, the removal of the president was lawful, meaning the action taken was done by the legitimate government of Ukraine.
edit on 15-3-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-3-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 07:46 AM
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neo96
reply to post by AnAbsoluteCreation
 



I am literally dumbfounded that people think that Reagan was the reason for those glory days

Reagan wasn't using the NSA to spy on Americans hell the 'internets' wasn't even around then.



As revealed in testimony during last week’s Senate Judiciary Hearing featuring members of President Barack Obama’s Review Group on Intelligence and Communications Technologies, a big share of the data collected by the government on its own citizens is authorized by Executive Order 12333, ushered in at the height of the Cold War in 1981 by Reagan.

watchdog.org...


Executive Order 12333
edit on 3/15/2014 by ~Lucidity because: spacing



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 07:53 AM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 



Also, just to clarify - the overthrow of a government is not terrorism, its a coup. In this case, the removal of the president was lawful, meaning the action taken was done by the legitimate government of Ukraine.

Like I said, you have no clue how law works.
Point me where in their Constitution the term 'coup' is recognized.
And just to give you a hint that every form of 'coup' as you call it, or violent overthrowing of the legally elected leadership in any countrie's highest acts is considered illegal.
Get this: Elections are the only and only legal way to elect state leadership, there's no other way.



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 08:05 AM
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reply to post by zilebeliveunknown
 

I don't thing coups are recognized by many (if any) constitutions because, after all, that would be a huge opening for the very lawmakers who control the constitutions to be overthrown. That being said, a coup is widely recognized by the world as a binding action that is sometimes the only alternative when a corrupt government is in power.



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 08:06 AM
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zilebeliveunknown
reply to post by Xcathdra
 



Also, just to clarify - the overthrow of a government is not terrorism, its a coup. In this case, the removal of the president was lawful, meaning the action taken was done by the legitimate government of Ukraine.

Like I said, you have no clue how law works.
Point me where in their Constitution the term 'coup' is recognized.
And just to give you a hint that every form of 'coup' as you call it, or violent overthrowing of the legally elected leadership in any countrie's highest acts is considered illegal.
Get this: Elections are the only and only legal way to elect state leadership, there's no other way.


Read the Ukrainian Constitution. I provided a link to it above in the post you ignored.
I also pointed out the various issues raised by people, including yourself, and how they are not supported by the Ukraine Constitution.

Or is this going to be one of those conversations where you are going to continue making claims while refusing to educate yourself on the Ukrainian Constitution?

when you decide to read it and answer the posted questions (raised by you and others) let me know.



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 08:12 AM
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Speaking of the drone...this just in from al Arabiya...


The Russian arms and technology group said it had manufactured the equipment used to down the aircraft, but did not specify who was operating it.

“Judging by its identification number, UAV MQ-5B belonged to the 66th American Reconnaissance Brigade, based in Bavaria,” Rostec said on its website, which also carried a picture of what it said was the captured drone.

The photograph appeared to show an apparently armed drone in flight, rather than debris.
Source


Still no comment from the U.S. though. And still no proof.



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 08:12 AM
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~Lucidity
reply to post by zilebeliveunknown
 

I don't thing coups are recognized by many (if any) constitutions because, after all, that would be a huge opening for the very lawmakers who control the constitutions to be overthrown. That being said, a coup is widely recognized by the world as a binding action that is sometimes the only alternative when a corrupt government is in power.


Ironically enough he failed to apply his "coup" term to the "government" in Crimea.

Not to mention Russia is about the only country so far that will "recognize" Crimea. Of course they would have to in order to continue the charade of legitimacy to Russia / Crimeas actions.

They also fail to recognize that the former President of Ukraine lived in a 75 million dollar home when his salary is only $25k a year. I would wager that type public abuse could be grounds for removal as well. Since it doesn't support the claims made by the Russians, its just ignored.

I wonder what he and others think about Chechnya and what the difference is between Russia in Crimea and Russia in Chechnya.


reply to post by ~Lucidity
 


The link shows a picture of a Drone in the US. Is there an actual photo of the supposedly captured drone?
edit on 15-3-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 08:13 AM
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ha ha ha cool news i read our Cossacks shot down it whip



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 08:16 AM
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mangust69
ha ha ha cool news i read our Cossacks shot down it whip


Ukrainian Cossacks vs Russian Cossacks? I'm assuming you mean the latter? I guess that's been co-opted too like they want Crimea to be.

edit on 3/15/2014 by ~Lucidity because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 08:17 AM
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Oh dear!First Iran,and now Russia has our model airplane"technology".Pffft...



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 08:17 AM
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reply to post by ~Lucidity
 



I don't thing coups are recognized by many (if any) constitutions because, after all, that would be a huge opening for the very lawmakers who control the constitutions to be overthrown.

Thank you for proving my point.
Oh, constitution controls laws and how lawmakers should behave not the other way around.


That being said, a coup is widely recognized by the world as a binding action that is sometimes the only alternative when a corrupt government is in power.

Any form of 'coup' isn't recognized by anyone, therefore it's illegal.
Please, don't spread misinformation.



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 08:19 AM
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zilebeliveunknown
Any form of 'coup' isn't recognized by anyone, therefore it's illegal.
Please, don't spread misinformation.


then using your logic explain Crimea.

While your at it feel free to answer the questions.

Also - If a coup is not recognized -
* - Explain the Soviet Union collapse?
* - Explain Soviet actions in Afghanistan?
* - Explain Soviet actions in Chechnya.
* - Explain Russian actions in Crimea.
* - Explain Russian actions in Georgia.

All coups, all recognized by Russia.

Or is it your contention that they are not Coups because Soviet Union / Russia was involved?
edit on 15-3-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 08:19 AM
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reply to post by zilebeliveunknown
 


It doesn't follow that it's illegal either though. I personally view it as the interim steps usually needed before constitutional steps can be taken.

ETA: If the president does or does not to choose to stick around while these steps are taken, well that's on him or her.
edit on 3/15/2014 by ~Lucidity because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 08:20 AM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


No. All they show is a photo from the Mexican border. And the story says they had a photo of the drone in flight in their hands.




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