Russia downs US drone *Breaking*

~Lucidity
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

No. All they show is a photo from the Mexican border. And the story says they had a photo of the drone in flight in their hands.

I went to the Russian site that supposedly created the technology to bring it down. Nothing there either that I could find.

reply to post by Xcathdra

Or is this going to be one of those conversations where you are going to continue making claims while refusing to educate yourself on the Ukrainian Constitution?

I'm making an argument with my question to you to provide me with paragraph in Ukranian constitution where 'coup' is recognized term.

Since your contra argument failed to provide me an answer to my question, I consider this debate with you pointless.
Your use of law is pointless because you're interpreting it in a wrong way.

reply to post by zilebeliveunknown


Like I stated, you will only make claims because you cannot support them. Then you obfuscate.

I provided you with the links.
I provided you with answers to your statements.
Now you are harping on what a coup is, even though one did NOT occur in Ukraine where as one DID occur in Crimea.

Try again -

Source - Office of the President Constitution of Ukraine - English
United Nations - Documents / Publications / Treaties
Constitution of Ukraine - Title X The Autonomous Republic of Crimea

Article 134. The Autonomous Republic of Crimea shall be an integral constituent part of Ukraine and shall resolve issues relegated to its authority within the frame of its reference, determined by the Constitution of Ukraine.

Article 137 and 138 are the "can do's" for Crimea - if you notice what Crimea / Russia is doing violates the Ukrainian Constitution.


Constitution of Ukraine - Title III Elections. Referendum

Article 73. Alterations to the territory of Ukraine shall be resolved exclusively by the All-Ukrainian referendum.

Constitution of Ukraine - Title XIII Making Amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine

Article 154. A draft law on making amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine may be submitted to the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by the President of Ukraine or by the people’s deputies of Ukraine comprising at least one-third of the constitutional membership of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

Article 155. A draft law on making amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine, except for Title I General Principles, Title III Elections, Referendum, and Title XIII Making Amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine, previously adopted by the majority of the constitutional membership of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, shall be deemed adopted, if at least two-thirds of the constitutional members of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine vote in its favour at the succeeding regular session of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

Article 156. A draft law on making amendments to Title I General Principles, Title III Elections, Referendum, and Title XIII Making Amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine, shall be submitted to the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by the President of Ukraine, or by not less than two-thirds of the constitutional membership of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, provided that it is adopted by at least two-thirds of the constitutional members of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, be approved by an All-Ukrainian referendum called by the President of Ukraine.

Resubmission of a draft law on making amendments to Titles I, III and XIII of this Constitution, addressing the same issue, shall be possible only at a succeeding convocation of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

Article 157. The Constitution of Ukraine shall not be amended, if the amendments foresee the abolition or restriction of human and citizen rights and freedoms, or if they are aimed at the liquidation of the independence or violation of the territorial integrity of Ukraine.

The Constitution of Ukraine shall not be amended under the conditions of martial law or a state of emergency.

Article 158. The draft law on making amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine, having been considered by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine and failing to be adopted, may be submitted to the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine no sooner than in one year from the day of the adoption of the decision on this draft law.

Within the term of its powers, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine shall not amend twice the same provisions of the Constitution of Ukraine.

Article 159. A draft law on making amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine shall be considered by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine upon the availability of an opinion of the Constitutional Court of Ukraine on the conformity of such draft law with the requirements of Articles 157 and 158 of this Constitution.

When you read their Constitution, it clearly spells out how things work, including how to remove a President and how to amend the Constitution, which does not need Presidential sign off. If people have issues with the Ukrainian Government Website being used as a source, we can always head over to the UN Website where its in their repository.



[align=center]Source - Office of the President Constitution of Ukraine - English[/align]

Quick Link - Ukrainian Constitution in English

Title I General Principles
Title II Human and Citizen Rights, Freedoms and Duties
Title III Elections. Referendum
Title IV The Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine
Title V The President of Ukraine
Chapter VI The Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine. Other Executive Authorities
Title VII Public Prosecution
Title VIII Justice
Title IX Territorial Structure of Ukraine
Title X The Autonomous Republic of Crimea
Title XI Local Self-Government
Title XII The Constitutional Court of Ukraine
Title XIII Making Amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine
Title XIV Final Provisions
Chapter XV Transitional Provisions

2014 UNHCR regional operations profile - Eastern Europe| Overview |Ukraine

To bring it back around and on topic -

Russia continually states they have no military in Crimea. So if Russia is claiming they shot down a drone in Crimea, are they lying now or were they lying earlier?

Secondly, the Crimea is a part of Ukraine, which would mean Russia shot down one of our drones over a foreign country where we have permission to be flying them.

Yet another miscalculation on Putins part -

50,000 rally in Moscow against Crimea intervention

Moscow (AFP) - Around 50,000 people rallied in central Moscow Saturday in protest at Russia's intervention in Ukraine, a day before the Crimean peninsula votes on switching to Kremlin rule.

Waving both Ukrainian and Russian flags and shouting slogans heard during the anti-government protests in Kiev, the demonstrators urged Russian President Vladimir Putin to pull troops back from a Cold War-style confrontation.

Marchers carried placards reading "Putin, get out of Ukraine" and others comparing Russia's move on Crimea with the Nazi annexation of the Sudetenland as Europe rushed headlong into World War II.

Many of the protesters adopted the chants and slogans of Ukraine's popular uprising that ousted President Viktor Yanukovych last month.

University professor Yelena Orlova, 47, whose sign read "Ukraine is a sovereign state", said she did not expect the rally would change her government's position, but believed it was her duty to speak out.

"I don't agree with the policy of Putin," she told AFP. "I am against the annexation of Crimea. I think Russia should respect the borders of Ukraine."

click link for remainder of article.

first of these whores www.youtube.com... and that had time to photograph demotivation.me...

reply to post by Xcathdra


In Moscow. Go figure. Too bad all those Russian Cossacks are in Crimea and can't deal with them directly. Maybe they can repurpose the downed drone and send it up to Moscow.

reply to post by beezzer

And America sends Kerry and a drone. But then again, I'm being redundant.

Absolutely priceless beezer. Thanks for the laugh!

reply to post by Xcathdra

Ironically enough he failed to apply his "coup" term to the "government" in Crimea.

Nice attempt on spinning the subject mate.
Ironicaly, again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm refering you to my posts from 5 days ago, in the other thread, where I clearly stated from legal point of view, that Crimean parliament doesn't have the authority to hold referendum on their status.

Post#1
Post#2

So not only you failed to provide me with an answer on my question, you also failed to discredit me as being biased.

I studied law, I know there isn't the term 'coup' in any countrie's constitutions, therefore it's illegal.

zilebeliveunknown
I'm making an argument with my question to you to provide me with paragraph in Ukranian constitution where 'coup' is recognized term.

I did, I linked you to the Ukrainian Constitution and specifically pointed out how the Ukrainian Parliament removed the President lawfully. As such, no "coup" occurred since the action was lawful and within the Ukrainian Constitution.

zilebeliveunknown
Since your contra argument failed to provide me an answer to my question, I consider this debate with you pointless.
Your use of law is pointless because you're interpreting it in a wrong way.

Again, attack the poster because you refuse to see the facts.

Parliaments actions are lawful - As I pointed out here.

Because those actions are within the Ukrainian Constitution, a lawful change in government occurred, which means no coup occurred. In compliance with the Constitution Parliament took several votes in this area, all of which met the minimum criteria established for it passing / being lawful.

Since no coup occurred, support your argument now about the government in Kiev being illegal?

As a side note I have a degree in Political Science - Public Law. So, again, you make an accusation / attack against me with nothing to support it while ignoring the question asked of you.

Did you do that because you cannot support your position? Is this also why you stated a debate is pointless? Because you are unable to defend your position? Surely if you are superior in this area to anyone else, then you should have no issues detailing the illegal actions taken by the Ukraine government while citing the information from the constitution.

You won't find the definition of Coup in the US Constitution either. Because of that, when Congress impeaches a US President and starts proceedings to remove him from power, as defined in the US Constitution, are they committing a coup against the Executive Branch of the US Government?

Same for Ukraine, where their parliament acted within the confines of the Ukrainian Constitution.

Even Putin has stated he gave up power - source

Alec Luhn is watching the press conference for the Guardian in Moscow.
Putin continues:

Why was this done? President Yanukovych, before Poland Germany and France, and before my representative, ombudsmen Lukin, signed an agreement with the opposition, by which, I want to note, Yanukovych basically gave up his power, he aggreed to all demands of opposition, early elections, to return to the constitution of 2004, … he didn’t give one illegal command to shoot unfortunate protestors.
They immediately seized his residence rather than giving him a chance to fulfil the agreement. .. He didn’t have any chance of being reelected. … Why did they need to take unconstitutional steps and bring the country into the chaos that now reigns there? … It was a stupid act.

Legitimate removal of the President.
Legitimate changing of the Constitution based on laws that infringed on Ukrainian civil rights (Anti Protest law).


Putin's actions are based entirely on the reversion to the 2004 Constitution while either using the Ukrainian Constitution to support his agenda or refusing to recognize the constitution when it does not.

If he could support his actions, he would have done so in the UN. They gave him multiple chances to present the evidence - Putin failed to comply.

reply to post by Xcathdra

First you said there was a coup, now that coup didn't occur. Which one is it?
Oh, don't bother, you're a waste of time.

zilebeliveunknown
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

First you said there was a coup, now that coup didn't occur. Which one is it?
Oh, don't bother, you're a waste of time.

You are the one that is stuck on Coup.

Had you read the posts -

Ukraine - No coup occurred
Crimea - A coup did occur.

Please answer the question and support your argument.

zilebeliveunknown
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

How could you say something like that with straight face really?
Last time I checked the violent overthrowing of one countrie's legitimate elected leadership is classified as TERRORISM.
Having said that, it's logical for me to think that you're in support of terrorists.
Please, next time don't use law to back up your statements because clearly you don't know how law works in the first place.

And X, probably 30% or more Ukrainians think there Russians anyway . I say, US, stay out of it.

reply to post by AnAbsoluteCreation


Once again I don't care. The US and OBAMA are trying to tell people what to do, again, and no one will listen. That whole area is "Russian" so why are we telling them what to do? Obama shouldn't care, leave them alone. Russia didn't butt into us invading the Middle East, Good, they stole a drone, good for them. What's that teach the US military for getting involved, that RUSSIA CAN TAKE US ON. Time to let Russia protect their assets. We have enough problems in the home land, why do we care so much about foreign affairs while thousands are homeless. Something like for every homeless person in the US there are over 15 homes that are empty, for each homeless person! We need to focus on us, not another country.

....now we're giving away homes to bums.

reply to post by tallcool1


This is EXACTLY how Russia invaded Hungry in the 50's. Keep spewing the US conspiracy angle. Learn from history.

reply to post by AnAbsoluteCreation


For some reason this article came to mind after reading this thread.

New Law All but Bars Russian GPS Sites in U.S.

Russia has some very good tech of there own and the US Government is scared of it's use anywhere near us for many reasons including technological competition but not limited to it.

reply to post by AnAbsoluteCreation

Crimea hasn't been annexed. The US has the authority to send drones for information gathering for it's ally, Ukraine. The russians probably have similar drone technology as the one sent, or we wouldn't have risked it. The US likely knows there was a chance of it falling into Russian hands and doesn't care. It was a move to show the US is there and will 'be there more' if this continues.

I think Russia is playing a losing game. Even China is p*ssed at them.

reply to post by SixX18
This not just a US thing. I am constantly wondering at people who think it is a US V. Russia problem. It is not. Other countries got on the sanctions and asset freezing right away. It is a world problem and Russia is not in a good place.

all2human
reply to post by AnAbsoluteCreation

 

If NATO grew a pair, it still would be equally scary I agree, but imo it's the only institution capable of stopping the annexation of Crimea
The appearance/capture of that particular drone indicates the presence of US spec operatives in Ukraine

Some of you guys should really start reading more about history, other countries, different cultures etc before discussing complicated topics such as this one.

Crimea WAS Russia until after the WWII. Today Russian is official language in Crimea with approx. 80% of the population being ethnic Russians. Nobody in EU cares if they want to call themselves 'Russia' again, not even Ukraine.

Even though Putin is doing some crazy s### for whatever reason and this occupation scenario is bizar (since Crimea always had the institutional right to proclaim independence from Ukraine) nobody here in the Old World wants another war.

F nato F obama and F putin...if they want to fight let them pick up a gun first.

reply to post by Exitt


First off, it's laughable that you start your reply telling people to learn history before discussing and then noted something that doesn't even support your point.

English is the main spoken language in much of Canada but we don't invade Canada.

In fact, what was you point?

AAC.