Religion does terrible things to good people

the2ofusr1
reply to post by Krazysh0t

 

I would agree the the main denominational types cant say that but I would also like to point out that there are some Churches that dont buy into the fallacy of needing a ordained minster that has the diploma . There are also many house Churches that don't have to contend with paying rent for a big building and somehow watching over a heard of people .They like the smaller flocks .It's a much closer family that way .

I attend such a church. It is called an Eldership Church, and it was they way it was before the Catholic Church was created by Constantine. Paul always wrote to the elders of the Church of any city and not the Pastors. When the reformation protest began and split from the Catholic church, they kept the idea of priests and that's how we get Pastors. The problem with this is that it puts the vision and purpose into the leadership of a man. An Eldership is of many and not one. The blessing added to this is that there is no need to pay for that one person to guide and lead them. The money goes back into the kingdom instead.

reply to post by Snarl


That is my whole life philosophy. I do not fear death, I do not fear change, I do not fear the unknown. Eternity and the infinite are just too large for anything that we do in our lifetimes to have any meaning whatsoever. Even if we scorch the Earth and there is no life whatsoever remaining on the planet, the universe will still go on completely oblivious of it ever having happened. Heck we could eradicate this whole galaxy from existence and it would STILL be inconsequential to the grand scheme of things. Coming to this understanding really opened my mind up to many different things.

But the point of this thread isn't to preach my world view to others, I just wanted to point out the folly of following organized religions.

reply to post by Thecakeisalie


First let me say great things happen to bad people because of religion. How many prisoners have been turned around because of religion? How many times has a church member or someone a church member knows been so sick they couldn't even leave the house and a church member comes by with food, house cleaning, medical help, and prayer? Who else does this if there is no family? Who else works with family and does this?

Secondly do you realize how much you pay in taxes without even a peep? The bible ask for 10% of your fruits and labors, this doesn't necessarily mean cash it could be your labor for the church. The churches do good things for the needy and poor without
making them dependant. Of course there are bad churches, there is some bad in everything weed them out don;t support them.

You pay more than this in gasoline tax, and drive on streets with potholes the size of a bbq. Your country is 17 trillion in debt, and they are increasing spending. If you're working you are paying huge part of your income in taxes, and yet you complain about a church asking for, NOT TAKING a percentage.

reply to post by MarlinGrace


I think you missed the point. He never said religions do not help people but it can also be very destructive to peoples lives as well. I have heard many stories similar to the one the OP described. It is just a shame that churches feel the need to have multi million dollar estates. In my state one faith(church) owns 2% of all the land (tax free) along with million dollar residences. That could have helped a lot of people.

Anyway his OP wasn't about who helps the needy the most.

That guy had an interesting approach.

People do terrible things to religion. Not the other way around. Religion has no volition and is incapable of "doing" anything. It has no brain or body parts and isn't an agent of action. Let's not turn our doubt of certain doctrines into a superstition.

reply to post by Grimpachi


I love that photo BTW thats perfect, I guess the point went right passed me when the title of the OP claims "religion does horrible things to good people". Living above your means is your fault not the churches. My only point is now before you point fingers at a church for having too much, making too much, or spending too much, why not look at your government the same way? Again the church ASK for 10% if you give more, then it's up to you, where as governments take over 50% when you combine all the taxes you pay on everything not just your income, and the same people don't make a peep.

Believe me I don't agree with a lot of money collection practices from churches, I once went to a church with a ATM at the entrance, and a coffee bar on the second floor with big screen TV's to watch the service. I didn't last but minutes there. If you want to work with your hands and back to help the church, distribute food, etc. that to is considered part of your 10% and it's up to you to decide if you think in your heart it's fair. Try that with the government.

We as a society have been conditioned by governments to point fingers everywhere but where it matters most, our elected officials, lately they are as corrupt as they come, churches ask for money, they don't take. There are corrupt churches as well but I will wager politicians out number them on a grand scale.

So if I still don't get the point then I will pray for understanding, and offer apologies. It still amazes me today my grandparents ended up with such a large bank account after working factories their whole life while faithfully paying their "Fire Insurance" to the church dutifully. America is the greatest country, founded, created, and backed, by a rich history of religion. Since the end of WWII it we have been losing our faith a drop at a time, the bucket is getting low, and now evil reaches farther into men's hearts than ever before. This is not because of the church. .

reply to post by MarlinGrace


For the most part I agree with your post but please bare with me as I feel I should address this part.

My only point is now before you point fingers at a church for having too much, making too much, or spending too much, why not look at your government the same

I don't care for that logic. Two wrongs do not make a right. I believe both issues should garner attention and both issues should be addressed. It sounds as if you are saying we should turn a blind eye to one because Johnny over there is doing it as well maybe even worse. I could make a taxes help people regardless of faith(you don't need to be in the club) but then you may think I am pro taxation or gov but I am not . I would prefer not to pay for things the gov does. Oh well..I do what I can election time.

Anyway, I do have complaints with the government but that in no way means I should stay quiet over the church accumulating (pardon the pun) ungodly amounts of wealth.

reply to post by Grimpachi


Agreed, I am not asking to forgive and forget church indiscretions, all I am saying attack something at the top of the distasteful pile not the bottom, we get more bang for the buck that way. An example would be this: My wife working for a small petroleum distribution company that sells about 80-100 million gallons of fuel a year. Taxes collected are roughly 50 cents a gallon. Some states a little less some a little more but I think it's a good average and easy for my brain to calculate. That would mean 40 million dollars from the sales of this fuel in one year, from one little distributor. And all the government did was stick out their hand a say give. I find it amazing the amount of money city, state, and federal governments waste without a peep. Lets clean them up then go after churches, and nonprofits to follow the law, and then they to can pay their "Fair Share".

Voting gives us the right to complain but ask yourself this, if all 3 branches of government have a terrible approval rating from the citizens why do they continue to get reelected in such large numbers? When the citizens are asked who is doing a better job churches or government what do you think the answer will be? 17 trillion or 100 trillion unfunded however you look at is ungodly.

There are bad apples in any organization and religious institutions are no different. Politics makes good people do bad things. Finance makes good people do bad things. Religion makes good people do bad things. Pick an institution and somewhere along the line someone within it has done something bad.

I also just wanted to say that it's important not to paint everyone with the same brush. I once worked for a Christian man that was very active in his church. He was involved in bible studies and when he wasn't working, he was doing something for his congregation. He owned a painting company, and painted the church (which was quite large) for free, on his own time. When I worked for him, he was very kind to me and very understanding. He appreciated how hard I worked, and if I ever needed a day off all I had to do was ask. I used to pick my paychecks up from the mailbox at his house after work, and one payday I noticed that there was an extra envelope with my name on it. I opened it and discovered an extra check made out to me for $500 (on top of my paycheck). Thinking there was some sort of mistake, I texted him and mentioned that he might have accidently written me an extra check by mistake. He replied that he felt compelled to bless my family and I, and that the extra $500 was mine to keep. I will never forget that, or him. He was and is an extremely hard working, kind, and generous man.

Long story short: There are good Christians out there too. Religion doesn't really make a man good or bad. It's what he does with it that matters.

Materialism is something you find everywhere regardless of professed faith or lack thereof. It's an extremely common condition of our prevailing culture. I'm not sure why you are blaming it on this man's religious beliefs. People can have large families without being overly materialistic about it; in fact, having a large family and raising them successfully almost demands a lack of materialism.

There's no doubt that there are plenty of places that have lost their way in teaching the basics of faith and plenty of people who talk the talk and don't actually walk the walk, but constructing a thread that seems aimed at tarring everyone based on your experiences with one family when all of their problems can't even definitively be traced directly back to their religion seems like you're just looking for an excuse.

reply to post by MarlinGrace


I think you used a bad example for unreasonable taxes. At least I know what that is earmarked for. Roads are not free. Neither are pipelines if approved it will cost tax payers over 7 billion.

Your statement of.

Lets clean them up then go after churches

Is a cop out IMO. There is no reason to give religious institutions a pass just because some other institution has a worse grade. I grew up in the Carolinas and can remember Tax free jim and tammy faye bakker amusement parks called Heritage USA. It is all ruins now but there is plenty of other examples of abuse. Personally I don't think religion should be exempt as I feel it violates the separation clause and has given unfair advantages to groups in certain market places.

Anyway here is a link with some pro and con positions on it.pro con

As far as saying goverment has to be cleaned up first before focusing on religions I whole hardily disagree I think people are perfectly capable of multitasking.

reply to post by Grimpachi


Yes, there is. Are you forced to go to a church or tithe to it? Are you forced to pay taxes to your federal, state, and local governments or risk legal and financial consequences?

If you answered yes to both questions, you may have a point. If you answered, no to the first and yes to the second then you can see why it's important to go after the government first. It takes at the point of a gun; churches don't have that power. You can simply avoid them. They are the lesser of two evils in terms of the people they can abuse because government abuses us all no matter what we do.

reply to post by ketsuko

Yes, there is.

Why?

Don't gives me any lessor of two evils BS that is just a cop out.

If the world worked that way we should let all mass murderers go because the government kills way more people. Sorry that doesn't work for me.

Incidenataly maybe if religious organizations aren't allowed to skate by and are in the same boat as the rest of us they would get involved in bringing the gov back in line.

reply to post by Thecakeisalie


I agree with the sentiments of your post but the title doesn't ring true to me. Religion doesn't do this; it is greed. It's just like saying religion is the cause of all wars. It's only half true.

The problem is that Christianity has a few obscure built-in clauses that allow for this sort of behavior and therefore allows greedy men to exploit others who don't see the scam. There is a verse about tithing yet there are no verses about what the church can't spend it on. There are verses about murder being sinful yet also several that condone genocide.

Which verses do you think a rich, powerful, political war machine would pick? The ones that promote giving to their causes, voting against the others, and that tricks people into thinking that the western world's invasions across the globe are just and righteous. They easily ignore the ones that talk about the wealthy not getting into heaven, about turning the other cheek, and loving Jesus requires loving the least among you.

The problem is people. Evil people.

Grimpachi
reply to post by ketsuko

 

Yes, there is.

Why?

Don't gives me any lessor of two evils BS that is just a cop out.

If the world worked that way we should let all mass murderers go because the government kills way more people. Sorry that doesn't work for me.

Incidenataly maybe if religious organizations aren't allowed to skate by and are in the same boat as the rest of us they would get involved in bringing the gov back in line.

They can't get involved in bringing the government back in line. If they do, then you and everyone else who doesn't like them will start yelling at them for not being religious but political and separation of church and state. And don't tell me you wouldn't.

I think what your point really is is that you don't like churches.

reply to post by ketsuko


More BS.

Religious institutions and their mouth pieces are already interfering "or trying to" in how the governments operates and to deny that is a lie.

If they didn't there tax free status would have already been revoked and because they are not affected by taxes they don't care about the rest of us.

christian minds are like concrete thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.

A story about people in a religious organization doing terrible things to good people....is not quite the same as meaning religion by definition is out to do terrible things to people, though many will insist so. One could just as well post a story about an atheist ripping some one off and claim ''a lack of belief does terrible things to good people''. Thats pretty much the logic used in the OP. Meanwhile, in the real world...its the theists who are running charities, orphanages, hospitals, aid networks etc. Theistic concepts stress on charity and compassionate behaviour. How terrible.

rupertg
christian minds are like concrete thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.

Because yours is so open... Open to anything but Christianity of course...

sk0rpi0n
A story about people in a religious organization doing terrible things to good people....is not quite the same as meaning religion by definition is out to do terrible things to people, though many will insist so. One could just as well post a story about an atheist ripping some one off and claim ''a lack of belief does terrible things to good people''. Thats pretty much the logic used in the OP. Meanwhile, in the real world...its the theists who are running charities, orphanages, hospitals, aid networks etc. Theistic concepts stress on charity and compassionate behaviour.

edit on 15-3-2014 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Well said sir.