Oh yes Caz, I agree. And I see it that way. As you point out it is a private world.
And I agree 'deny ignorance' is an oxymoron statement. You can not deny IGNORANCE, it exists. Plain and simple I mean how can you deny what exists. Like deny thirst, hunger, passion, lust, on and on. As long as there are two living individuals on the freak'in planet one of them will be ignorant of something, you can not deny that, try as you may.
And no this board is not controled by eliteists. It is controled by individuals that think they are elite. Kinda like our Nation, here I go again. "Micro, hey Macro, whaz upp"

Polar Bear, based on your posts, I'm not exactly sure what your point is, so I'll address what I think you're trying to say, with the disclaimers that must go with that.

Having spent a fair amount of time on the Internet in several different capacities, I have come to realize that while information may be cheap in the Age of the Internet, worthwhile information is becoming increasingly more scarce and therfore more valuable.

ATS has a reputation as a source for valuable information that is well-deserved. Such information comes as the result of research, compilation and most of all, thought.

My criticism of ATS these days is that the content of the board is diminishing in quality. I don't think I need to give examples, because they are rampant.

The question every person reading these forums -- members and lurkers alike -- will ask themselves each time they come here is: is this worth my time?

In my case, and of course your opinion may vary, it is getting harder for me to answer this question in the affirmative.

Information I can't get elsewhere about UFOs, secret projects, conspiracies and the supernatural is valuable to me, but thread after thread of flames and trollery are things I can find anywhere and, more importantly, have negative value to me.

In fact, the flamers and trolls here are a sorry bunch who wouldn't last ten posts on the kind forum alt.flame was during its heyday. Not even worth the click of a mouse to read such infantile, pathetic posery. So it's not even worthwhile to come here looking for good flamecraft.

In my humble opinion, the quality of the content of the ATS discussion forums is on the way down. I was hoping that almost a month after the U.S. elections the madness would pass.

Instead, it seems more flamers and trolls are piling on every day as the ATS culture deteriorates, and this does not bode well for the future of ATS. It is with this concern in mind that I recommend the staff act to keep ATS closer to what its stated purpose is.

Just so we're clear on where I stand on this issue, I'll say it plainly: If you oppose ATS being what its owners, operators and the members who abide by the T&C want it to be, then I don't give a tinker's damn what your opinion is.

A truely excellent post. I'm behind you 100%, majic!

I think it would also be good if we bring back public hangings for banned members, and flogging for flamers.

But in all seriousness I think the idea of the public being aware of a posters "criminal record" is a great idea. That way people could see what "type" of poster they were in all threads.

Also it may be an idea that a particular post could be highlighted in a thread as a post that caused the member to get an official warning. It would then be clear to people what sort of post warrants a warning from ATS.

Put the guilty on display I say!

Originally posted by Majic
Polar Bear, based on your posts, I'm not exactly sure what your point is, so I'll address what I think you're trying to say, with the disclaimers that must go with that.

Having spent a fair amount of time on the Internet in several different capacities,
Just so we're clear on where I stand on this issue, I'll say it plainly: If you oppose ATS being what its owners, operators and the members who abide by the T&C want it to be, then

I am not discussing my posts I am discussing your post And as I said you are not very humble, I appreciate your fair amount of time though, must be more fair than mine

"I don't give a tinker's damn what your opinion is"

Now you sound like a flaming Troll.


Your freak'in killing me Brown Nose

lets stay on topic please...

this is a good thread and the points are good...

majic, make shure SO sees this AND SimonGray AND SUPER mods too...

THEN this will be affective...

Turkey,

Oh never mind, it is not worth it to me. Franklin the Elder of the Founders wanted the Turkey to be the Nations Bird for it's value as sustenance. The Masonic Generals and warriors wanted the Mythological Phoenix that would rise from the Ash of the New Jurusealam, America, to be the Standard. Moderation won out and the Eagle Vulture was chosen.
I would have suggested the Peregrine Falcon, the fastest Bird in Existence. Oh well. Point is Ben did define electricity 100 years later they figured out how to put it in a bulb. Perhaps in a 100 years 'they see all' will see his brown beak


I'm sorry I just can't help myself sometimes, ya follow!

[edit on 25-11-2004 by Polar Bear]

Heya Folks, Let's leave the name calling in the lunchroom, and playground. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and we are all able to express them here in one fashion or another. We have a valuable resource in ATS, and let's not muddy it with useless name calling BS.

The Golden Rule, should always apply. Whether you be left or right, our boards are for all comers with the decency to express their opinions in a concise fashion.

A revamping of ATS, is not necessary but, to squelch the hate-bashing ways it may be usefull. I certainly see more room for enforcement of codes of conduct, and decorum.

Anyways, whether people are brown nosers can be left to the minds of those who want to think those thoughts. I'd like to think everyone here is adult enough to express their opinions, whether they be in good taste or not is up to the Mods. If a Mod edits your post, it is probably for good reason.

Majic, many good points, and you are a valuable and eccentric member of this board my friend, and I would have it no other way.

-ADHDsux4me

Why do I feel that was directed at me. You could have been polite and wrote Mr. Bear. I agree civility and fairness should not be ignored. My point was and is that in our micro/macro world both are ignored. The "you are either with us or against us" mentality is running rampant. Creating disorder across the board [and I am not merely referring to this board, I mean the world]
Simply because I do not speak in proper wasp tones and words and with your definition of civility, you brand me. Because I call a spade a spade rather than a gardening implement, you shun the message. Our President puffs his chest with wind and brazenly sounds from the pulpit of civility, "Bring It On" and for some strange reason he is worshiped by so many in our land. Is it nationalism or patriotism. At least it was only a three word statement and he got it right.
In your despise for my blatant gruffness you have managed to miss the points in my initial statement. What a shame for you, in my humble opinion

Polar Bear

i honestly don't think the problem is ignorence,i think it is the young people that this site attracts. young people who are searching for knowledge and expansion but are too quick at the tongue. i haven't noticed an abundance of "ignorance" maybe a few posts here and there that are obviously posted by the very young. most posts i read are posted by very intelligent,although overly-opinionated people.

In whose judgment could any statement be "overly" opinionated, and what would that say about the judge?

If every person at ATS considered every other person to be their equal in terms of their right to bring something to this Forum, quite a few problems might be diminished.

But if every person took a mirror test then many may find that this is not something that they believe.

Yea ill lay off emily craig and try to be nice to her along with other posters who post things that are idiotic to me. I will also take my time in posting so that my words and meanings are clear.

i wont be cockey either. Sorry i know ive been an A-hole at times on this board. If the members cant act like people then the mods are only going to kick them out. Then we wont have members.

It starts with us, the posters.

I give a formal state of appolgy to anyone ive offended on this board.

Thanks, Majic, for the input.

Many of us remember when there were but a small handful of us cutting up on the board, discussing different topics and generally having a great time. Due to the technilogical know-how, creativity and imagination of Skeptic Overlord, Simon and the other admin folks, this place has slowly but steadily grown to a giant. Apparently, they have some kind of an idea how to make the place work.

As far as when and how to ban, that is something that in not generally done without thought. When the need is present to take quick action, we all have the authority to do so. When there is time, we all deliberate, and when it appears a problem is on the horizon, we notify each other to be on the look-out so that those on different "shifts" can monitor potential problems that cropped up at various times of the day.

I guess what I'm saying is, there is more going on behind the scenes than you might think.

As far as perma bans and temporary bans, we have that capability and take advantage of it as situations allow. As far as allowing people back who have been "perma" banned, that rarely happens as we have a long track record of such situations and we have learned that way more often than not bringing a trouble-maker back only allows for more drama and trouble on the board. The board is successful, and as it has grown, we have learned many things from the success. We are not likely to go against our lessons.

While we try and keep he board as calm and sane as possible, there will always be two camps; one camp is that there is too much "anything goes" activity here, and the other camp is the "The Mods and Admin are a bunch of mind control thought censors" people. We'll never make everyone happy, but apparently, there is enough leeway for both camps to reside here in this community.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I guess what I'm saying is, there is more going on behind the scenes than you might think.

And how. Your comments are both insightful and welcome Majic, but as Special Adjunct to the Secretary of Hand Wringing (and to TC's point) we probably don't ban some people fast enough. But we do eventually get it right.

Some though, simply don't need a set number of warns to warrant action nor do they exhibit any intent to foster a desire among staff for further communication or mercy.

Others most would probably like to ban, give us no reason to do so. Stupid rules.

While we try and keep he board as calm and sane as possible, there will always be two camps; one camp is that there is too much "anything goes" activity here, and the other camp is the "The Mods and Admin are a bunch of mind control thought censors" people. We'll never make everyone happy, but apparently, there is enough leeway for both camps to reside here in this community.

Always true. And both sides will continue to call the other ignorant. I'm frankly sick of the charge itself. Ignorance? People being tired of this or that kind of thread, or those kind of people, or the ignorance he or she spews. Enough already. Deny it. Argue it. Ignore it. But don't complain about it (directed universally).

Perhaps it's a lack of a common definition, but differing opinions aren't ignorance. Even strongly held, vitriolically argued opinions of the most colorful in nature (that don't violate T&C) are not ignorance and are welcome.

Granted these aren't the gem resource posts we all (should) strive for, but it is a discussion board after all. Truisms leave little to discuss. Though I'll argue anyone to the death that 3 + 7 does indeed equal 11.

There are three kinds of people in the world. Those that can count and those that can't.

[edit on 26-11-2004 by RANT]

Ooooh we DO still have some intelligent new cops here after all

100% Agreed that ATS has fallen to the side of the trolls and the likes... I'd go into this massive speech about what the site used to be, but I'll summarize it and spare you all.

When joining back in March... the site was cosmetically, and all out just running beautifully. April... still great... May... still... you hit June 29, then we started to tilt just a little bit, then by August 19 we're in a ignorant ditch.

A mass amount of members who have left here... because I know there is a few, have left because of this, and that causes the board to be overtaken by this.

Very good argument indeed Majic.

And yet, members present at any given time are at all time highs.

People come, people go, trolls come and trolls go - either by bannings or by boredom when members ignore them.

Hey, want a suggestion? When you spot a troll, send one of us an u2u. This place is huge, and there are only so many cops on duty at any given time. Another way to get our attention is to send in a complaint. We all check out the complaints and they are not ignored. Please, attach an url so that we can get a lock on the troll alert quickly.

Originally posted by Shugo
I'd go into this massive speech about what the site used to be, but I'll summarize it and spare you all.

I'm quite sure that around the time you were joining there were members making very similar posts. "Oh ATS isn't what it used to be" etc. The reality is that this is a cyclical complaint, everyone longs for the 'good old days'. When in reality those days were much the same.

At the moment ATS member participation and exposure is at an all time high. There is a ton of good quality threads and posts coming through every day. It just so happens that numerically speaking, a higher overall participation rate means that even if the percentage of trolls and jerks remains the same, there will be more of them.

The simple truth is this, ATS is defined by the members. The staff do not and will not define what topics are covered and what peoples opinions are. If you want more discussion on a topic, post more about it. Its that simple. If you think someone is being stupid in their posts. Use your own posts to point out the flaws.

Board member traffic might not be an accurate measurement of the overall quality, but guest traffic most definitely is. People don't come in their tens of thousands every day to read crap posts.

The senior staff group at ATS is basically the same as it has been for the last 4 years, and in that time we have seen ATS grow so rapidly that its hard to believe its the same place. In that time we've experimented with different methods and practises in every aspect of managing the board. The system we have now is a result of that experimentation.

EDIT: Also, what TC said. Help out! If you see someone breaking the TAC, let a staff member know!

[edit on 26-11-2004 by Kano]

You know... that really does put me in a position to stand corrected. None the less I'm struggling to get on ATS, so that probably has somewhat to do... all I do is hear things anymore.

While i LOVE this site,
Dont get too full of yourselves here on ATS.

Shugo says,

I'd go into this massive speech about what the site used to be, but I'll summarize it and spare you all.

Let me summerize....
almost universally, (and i do push this site to ALL i can) once a person has looked over ATS, here is the general feedback i get.

"That is a site that teenaged geeks with too much time at the computer have to fantasize about stuff with no basis in reality."
or something generally like that...indications of real fringers posting stuff....little or no credibillity......a fun site not to be taken seriously.....

This despite my pointing out some great and detailed reports, the fact that many cite links that provide some basis for idea support and cross referancing, the many moderate positions and ideas being advocated, and the general caliber of most of the posts.

I find that all of the talk about this site going down to trolls or being overrun with flamers and how things are going to be kept at a higher level amusing......No matter how "important"and "educated" and "civil" you try to keep posts, and run out those that seem disruptive, this site will evoke the idea of the 3 geeks in the x-files series. You are NOT getting respect as you think you are DESPITE the high traffic.

If the record # of non member viewers thought the same we members do about ATS, then why havent they all joined?

I'm not saying to throw in the towel and give in to allowing ATS to deterioriate from troll/flame posts. While im not wild about some of the "crackdown" and the "intellectual elietism" i see being expressed about "our posts are better than theirs" as justification for speech repressive measures, I as a journalist of +10yrs with the big 4 networks (yes fox news counts) i do see alot of good posts and interesting if hypothetical stuff here. (as well as some truths or new perspectives)
BUT
self delusions of being on the moral high ground (verbally) arent changing the general perceptions of this site overall.

Could having overall higher than average post quality attract new members? sure

Could this also be construed as "geek speek" because its too highbrow and exclusive of average posts including flames and derrogatory comments? "intellectual elietism" You bet it could.
Snobbery knows no class bounds.

Heres an example, rant says,

Others most would probably like to ban, give us no reason to do so. Stupid rules.

You mean people like ME perhaps, ones that buck the trend and say something you dont like to hear, yet someone that doesnt cross the EXISTING line? (as well as it can be known)
Hmm so what criteria would you be using to determine what form of speech, or expression of what, would qualify for THIS type of ban if its not spelled out in the rules? Already an expression of going BEYOND the rules (from a mod no less) that expouses banning for a non rule reason, let alone a widely vauge determination of existing rules violations....
some posts "better" than others eh...based on what?
hmmm, Pandora wants her box back.

One mans flame post is anothers form of expression.
Intolorance of expression can never deny ignorance.

[edit on 26-11-2004 by CazMedia]

[edit on 26-11-2004 by Polar Bear]

I totally agree! I think that 3 warnings within a given time frame should have a temporary ban....and the rules need to be carried for "all" I have had bannings for excessive quoting...only to have others in the same thread with larger quotes than mine go unnoticed with no warning at all....yes, I agree with everything you said! It would keep the integrity of the forums.