Canadian doctor makes anti-Obamacare senator look like a buffoon

thov420

macman
reply to post by thov420

 

The forced part was regarding the Govt forcing hospitals to treat anyone, regardless if they can pay or not.

I was called pedantic once here and I had a convo with a mod because I felt mistreated. I think that adjective applies here. My question is what law "forces" hospitals to treat anyone and everyone? I thought that might be the Hippocratic Oath but you clearly stated treating people has nothing to do with billing people for treatment. So while repetitive, I believe it behooves me to ask again, what US law forces hospitals to treat life threatening injuries?

EMTLA act. www.cms.gov... on/EMTALA/index.html?redirect=/emtala/ This law requires that all conditions, no mater what they are, are treated in the ER and hospital without reimbursement. This is why our ER have long lines of illegals and people with rashes clogging the system. Since this is not reimbursed by anyone, the cost is passed to those who pay and one reason why you might pay $10 for an aspirin the next time you stay at the hospital.

Monger
reply to post by thov420

 

How about common human decency?

I genuinely fail to understand why the fact that every citizen of a free nation has a right to free and assessable healthcare is such a hotbotton issue among Americans.

Should our civilization survive another hundred years, I think that our decendants will be looking back at threads like this one in shame.

edit on 3/17/2014 by Monger because: (no reason given)

I disagree. People have the right to healthcare or any other good or service. We just don't think that you have the right to force someone else to pay for what you want. The very fact you called it "free" shows you don't understand it. It may be "free" to you, but someone is certainly paying for it. Who is more selfish? Someone who wants to keep what they ear to take acre of themselves and their family or someone who didn't earn it want to take that to take care of someone else. I'm surprised that someone who believes in freedom likes to take from his neighbor.

Why do some of our American friends in this thread feel like we are trying to dictate to you how you should run your country? Far be it from me or any other Canadian to tell any american how his or her nation should operate. I don't think that is what any of us are doing in this thread (at least I don't believe it's what we are trying to do). What Canadians in this thread are doing, is defending our own system and our own values, and affirming that we like our healthcare system and wouldn't trade it for an Americanized system. That isn't us trying to tell you how to live your lives. It's us telling you that we enjoy the way we live ours, which is pertinent in the context of this discussion, since Americans are dealing with a newly implemented (and disastrous) healthcare system.

I understand why the majority of U.S citizens are upset with obamacare. From over here, it looks like an unmitigated disaster and your premiums seem ridiculously high (even compared to the high amount of progressive taxation we are subject to up here). Is obamacare the best the U.S can do? I highly doubt that.

As far as the numbers for medical papers go, It comes as no surprise to me that the U.S leads the medical research field, given it's still a world leader in technology and medical science. I did however find it interesting that the numbers for Canada were so high, since if you look at these figures in comparison to population totals, Canada would appear to be producing medical advancements on par with or slightly ahead of the U.S (per capita). Canada has 38.8 million people compared to the U.S population of 314 million, an almost 8 fold difference, whereas the published biomedical papers are 1169 and 175 respectively (a 6 fold difference). That would seem to indicate the numbers have more to do with population than any sort of difference in academia.

NavyDoc

Someone who wants to keep what they ear to take acre of themselves and their family or someone who didn't earn it want to take that to take care of someone else. I'm surprised that someone who believes in freedom likes to take from his neighbor.

Are you willing to pay taxes for the US military so that Americans can stay free or do you think it better that every American should be personally responsible?

reply to post by NavyDoc


Fixed your link: EMTLA Act

And thank you for that. I didn't know there was actually a law for this. I did a search but missed keywords. I'll have to do some reading,

masqua

NavyDoc

Someone who wants to keep what they ear to take acre of themselves and their family or someone who didn't earn it want to take that to take care of someone else. I'm surprised that someone who believes in freedom likes to take from his neighbor.

Are you willing to pay taxes for the US military so that Americans can stay free or do you think it better that every American should be personally responsible?

Or not...?

"Provide for the common defense" is a specifically enumerated duty of the federal government. Taking care of all your wants and needs is not.

Do you think you should be personally responsible for keeping a roof over your head, food in your stomach, clothes on your back or do you think that is the duty of the state as well?

NavyDoc

Monger
reply to post by thov420

 

How about common human decency?

I genuinely fail to understand why the fact that every citizen of a free nation has a right to free and assessable healthcare is such a hotbotton issue among Americans.

Should our civilization survive another hundred years, I think that our decendants will be looking back at threads like this one in shame.

edit on 3/17/2014 by Monger because: (no reason given)

I disagree. People have the right to healthcare or any other good or service. We just don't think that you have the right to force someone else to pay for what you want.

"Want"?

I am not talking about buying the guy a corvette. But if his femur is sticking out of his leg and his lungs are punctured, how much money he has doesn't matter. I am happy to pay into the same system he does to make sure they fix him up.

We ALL pay into the system to make sure we ALL get the treatment we need.

NavyDoc
"Provide for the common defense" is a specifically enumerated duty of the federal government. Taking care of all your wants and needs is not.

A healthy population is in the interest of the government, as the last century with two world wars (etc. like Viet Nam) where conscription played a part shows.

Do you think you should be personally responsible for keeping a roof over your head, food in your stomach, clothes on your back or do you think that is the duty of the state as well?

I consider it my duty to provide for my family and have done so all my life (I'm 68), but I consider it the duty of my government (through taxation) to provide services over which I have no control. Health Care is one I don't mind paying a total of $600/year for. It provides security for everyone in my immediate family of 7, whether they're paying into the system or not (my granddaughter is only 6 months and too young to work).

reply to post by Leonidas

Give up. Americans have different values from us, and vive la différence. Which is why I enjoy going to the States...but am always happy to get home.

SunnyDee

snypwsd
reply to post by hounddoghowlie

 

that is for elective surguries not life threatening surguries. Canadian government does not cover alot of elective surguries because your healthe is not at risk so it is a waste of taxpayer money. Elective surgeries include plastic surgery, tummy tucks, stapped stomaches ect. do not spread false info. For a normal doctors apointment most people have a family doctor that they can make an apointment to see their doctor in just a day or twoo. Also there are emergency rooms and free clinics too. All for the price of $50 a month.

Wow that's cheap! I'm not on Ocare, but I've heard it's a lot more than that! So 40 million Canadians pay $50 a month? So Canada receives 200 million a year to cover all their costs? That's not much. They must have to cut corners somewhere. Do they also treat foreigners for free? Does healthcare costs eat up the govt budget or what?

Just trying to understand how it all works.

Sorry I think your math is a little wrong.

lets go over the equation for a moment.

*this is a with a rough estimate of population*

40,000,000 (population) x $50 = $2,000,000,000

Now you do this.

$2,000,000,000 x 12 (months) = $24,000,000,000

The actuall number would be just a little less, but as you can see our universal health care system gets around 24 Billion dollars.

There is a big difference in our math. But I am glad that I could clear that up a bit.

NavyDoc

masqua

NavyDoc

Someone who wants to keep what they ear to take acre of themselves and their family or someone who didn't earn it want to take that to take care of someone else. I'm surprised that someone who believes in freedom likes to take from his neighbor.

Are you willing to pay taxes for the US military so that Americans can stay free or do you think it better that every American should be personally responsible?

Or not...?

"Provide for the common defense" is a specifically enumerated duty of the federal government. Taking care of all your wants and needs is not.

Do you think you should be personally responsible for keeping a roof over your head, food in your stomach, clothes on your back or do you think that is the duty of the state as well?

Who said anything about "All your wants and needs"?

We are talking about the essence of human existence. Life. Health.

How do you make the jump from sharing healthcare costs to "All your wants and needs"?

Nobody here is talking about that and no reasonable person in Canada or America would consider that for a second.

Healthcare, just healthcare. Medical needs for you and your family. Full stop.

JohnnyCanuck
reply to post by Leonidas

 

Give up. Americans have different values from us, and vive la différence. Which is why I enjoy going to the States...but am always happy to get home.

Maybe, but I have a lot of American friends, I spend half the year in Hawaii and they are pretty much all great people. Maybe they secretly hate me and my sneaky "free" healthcare.

NavyDoc

masqua

NavyDoc

Someone who wants to keep what they ear to take acre of themselves and their family or someone who didn't earn it want to take that to take care of someone else. I'm surprised that someone who believes in freedom likes to take from his neighbor.

Are you willing to pay taxes for the US military so that Americans can stay free or do you think it better that every American should be personally responsible?

Or not...?

"Provide for the common defense" is a specifically enumerated duty of the federal government. Taking care of all your wants and needs is not.

Do you think you should be personally responsible for keeping a roof over your head, food in your stomach, clothes on your back or do you think that is the duty of the state as well?

You are going too over board there. You can't compare health care to clothes. That is just pathetic really, that you have to go to that level to try to discredit Universal health care.

Navydoc, I take it you were in the navy? If so, how would you feel if the government didnt supply you with medics/doctors/nurses while on tour or in battle?

You would obviously not be happy with that because there is a need for health care on the battle field right? And that health care is pretty universal in the military is it not? I mean every one gets treated for injuries do they not? The Americans pay for that Health care do they not?

Why is it ok to have universal health care in the military but not for the average joe?

You are fighting a loosing battle.

The fact of the matter is we pay $50 a month ($600 a year) for health care, its done when we pay taxes, To know that our nation grows strong and healthy.

I liked the comment earlier that said *Im paraphrasing* Look at it from the perspective of why do Canadians love their health care system.

You must understand that we dont hate your system, its just not for us. We care too much about our neighbors and our families to leave everything up to chance. If you would actually do some research you might learn a thing or two.

Leonidas

NavyDoc

Monger
reply to post by thov420

 

How about common human decency?

I genuinely fail to understand why the fact that every citizen of a free nation has a right to free and assessable healthcare is such a hotbotton issue among Americans.

Should our civilization survive another hundred years, I think that our decendants will be looking back at threads like this one in shame.

edit on 3/17/2014 by Monger because: (no reason given)

I disagree. People have the right to healthcare or any other good or service. We just don't think that you have the right to force someone else to pay for what you want.

"Want"?

I am not talking about buying the guy a corvette. But if his femur is sticking out of his leg and his lungs are punctured, how much money he has doesn't matter. I am happy to pay into the same system he does to make sure they fix him up.

We ALL pay into the system to make sure we ALL get the treatment we need.

edit on 17-3-2014 by Leonidas because: (no reason given)

And an emergency like that is already covered under EMTLA in the states, so that is not what we're talking about. What we are talking about is day to day, routine healthcare. If all insurance did was cover emergencies like a fractured femur or pneumothorax, then it would be very , very cheap. We used to have very cheap catastrophic policies that did exactly that so young people who were healthy and did not need day to day routine care beyond the occasional work physical could be protected without breaking the bank. This was removed by socialist do gooders.

The fact of the matter is people want someone else to pay for their routine care and this is where the debate lies.

masqua

NavyDoc
"Provide for the common defense" is a specifically enumerated duty of the federal government. Taking care of all your wants and needs is not.

A healthy population is in the interest of the government, as the last century with two world wars (etc. like Viet Nam) where conscription played a part shows.

Do you think you should be personally responsible for keeping a roof over your head, food in your stomach, clothes on your back or do you think that is the duty of the state as well?

I consider it my duty to provide for my family and have done so all my life (I'm 68), but I consider it the duty of my government (through taxation) to provide services over which I have no control. Health Care is one I don't mind paying a total of $600/year for. It provides security for everyone in my immediate family of 7, whether they're paying into the system or not (my granddaughter is only 6 months and too young to work).

edit on 17/3/14 by masqua because: (no reason given)

I agree. It is your duty to provide your family with what it needs.

Leonidas

NavyDoc

masqua

NavyDoc

Someone who wants to keep what they ear to take acre of themselves and their family or someone who didn't earn it want to take that to take care of someone else. I'm surprised that someone who believes in freedom likes to take from his neighbor.

Are you willing to pay taxes for the US military so that Americans can stay free or do you think it better that every American should be personally responsible?

Or not...?

"Provide for the common defense" is a specifically enumerated duty of the federal government. Taking care of all your wants and needs is not.

Do you think you should be personally responsible for keeping a roof over your head, food in your stomach, clothes on your back or do you think that is the duty of the state as well?

Who said anything about "All your wants and needs"?

We are talking about the essence of human existence. Life. Health.

How do you make the jump from sharing healthcare costs to "All your wants and needs"?

Nobody here is talking about that and no reasonable person in Canada or America would consider that for a second.

Healthcare, just healthcare. Medical needs for you and your family. Full stop.

That's what you are suggesting with this philosophy. Is not food the essence of life? Clothing? Why should the government not provide that for all as well? Why should you be forced by greedy capitalists to provide your own food and shelter as you have a right to those?

reply to post by NavyDoc


If you dont mind me asking....

How much does an american have to pay to see the doctor?

reply to post by NavyDoc


As I have.

As far as Health Care goes, there were those in Canada who, like you, fought hard against the idea of a 'single payer' system when it was first proposed.

I'm glad they lost.

BTW... I think Obamacare can't hold a candle to the Canadian system.

snypwsd

NavyDoc

masqua

NavyDoc

Someone who wants to keep what they ear to take acre of themselves and their family or someone who didn't earn it want to take that to take care of someone else. I'm surprised that someone who believes in freedom likes to take from his neighbor.

Are you willing to pay taxes for the US military so that Americans can stay free or do you think it better that every American should be personally responsible?

Or not...?

"Provide for the common defense" is a specifically enumerated duty of the federal government. Taking care of all your wants and needs is not.

Do you think you should be personally responsible for keeping a roof over your head, food in your stomach, clothes on your back or do you think that is the duty of the state as well?

You are going too over board there. You can't compare health care to clothes. That is just pathetic really, that you have to go to that level to try to discredit Universal health care.

Navydoc, I take it you were in the navy? If so, how would you feel if the government didnt supply you with medics/doctors/nurses while on tour or in battle?

You would obviously not be happy with that because there is a need for health care on the battle field right? And that health care is pretty universal in the military is it not? I mean every one gets treated for injuries do they not? The Americans pay for that Health care do they not?

Why is it ok to have universal health care in the military but not for the average joe?

You are fighting a loosing battle.

The fact of the matter is we pay $50 a month ($600 a year) for health care, its done when we pay taxes, To know that our nation grows strong and healthy.

I liked the comment earlier that said *Im paraphrasing* Look at it from the perspective of why do Canadians love their health care system.

You must understand that we dont hate your system, its just not for us. We care too much about our neighbors and our families to leave everything up to chance. If you would actually do some research you might learn a thing or two.

You are wrong. It is an apt comparison. You need food and clothing to survive--even more so than healthcare. Why then should that not also be provided to you by the state?

I've done my research and your system has many flaws, weather you admit it or not.

I'm not fighting a loosing battle. My clothes and my mind are both quite tight. The battle is not "losing" either because it is founded in sound reason and knowledge.

The average Joe should have healthcare for the same reason the average soldier does--he works for it. It is not provided "free" it is part of a reimbursement package in exchange for the services that the soldier provides and Tricare would fail without the private sector because the military does not have enough resources to cover demand.

snypwsd
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

If you dont mind me asking....

How much does an american have to pay to see the doctor?

It depends. Copays range form as little as $3 for Medicaid to a few hundred for private insurance. My copay to see a physician under my private insurance is $24 to $40 depending on where I am in my deductible.