The Harm Principle

This is how I try to live my life.

I could careless what you do or say as long as it doesn't harm me.

Definition:

The belief "that no one should be forcibly prevented from acting in any way he chooses provided his acts are not invasive of the free acts of others" has become one of the basic principles of libertarian politics.

Why is that so difficult for some?

That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right... The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.

Is it because you think you are the only one that gets it?

That you are so brilliant others must be forced to believe like you?

Now let's take posting on ATS for a second.

Is there anything that I could type that harms you?

Why do people get upset over words on a screen?

There is nothing you can type that harms me.

Harm itself is not a non-moral concept. The infliction of harm upon another person is what makes an action wrong.

So let's try to keep posting online in perspective.

Words don't hurt people...People hurt People.

Some folks need to quit getting upset because somebody types something you disagree with.

Peace and Love to all the members of the ATS Family.

Harm Principle Wiki

Freedom is often defined as men being able to do what they want so long as they do no harm to another. But what is harm?

Consider the words of John Stuart Mill, who is often referred to as a promoter of the "do no harm" principle:

"Finally, if by his vices or follies a person does no direct harm to others, he is nevertheless (it may be said) injurious by his example, and ought to be compelled to control himself for the sake of those whom the sight or knowledge of his conduct might corrupt or mislead.

... If gambling, or drunkenness, or incontinence, or idleness, or uncleanliness are as injurious to happiness, and as great a hindrance to improvement, as many or most of the acts prohibited by law, why (it may be asked) should not law, so far as is consistent with practicability and social convenience, endeavor to repress these also?"

- John Stuart Mill, 'On Liberty'

I have never found a disagreement in ideology or thought a reason to not be amicable to someone, open discourse fuels society, the free exchange of ideas maturely is important to society as a whole.

Unfortunately we have found ourselves in a time, when every ones own opinion is so important to them that the above no longer holds true for some.

reply to post by benrl

Unfortunately we have found ourselves in a time, when every ones own opinion is so important to them that the above no longer holds true for some.

Why do you think that is.

Is it because their Momma told them they were Special?

I have never seen it like this...

reply to post by whyamIhere


We live in a world, where all opinions are valid, the media sells it and shoves it down everyones throat.

The sad fact is statistically that could be furthest from the truth, The average Person of the world, is uneducated and ignorant, and thats in the First world.

Everyone feels their views should be heard and listened to, no matter how ignorant, we have fostered an anti-intellectual attitude. when faced with reason logic the only response it can illicit is anger and hurt from people who where never taught to reason and debate in the school systems.

benrl


Everyone feels their views should be heard and listened to, no matter how ignorant, we have fostered an anti-intellectual attitude. when faced with reason logic the only response it can illicit is anger and hurt from people who where never taught to reason and debate in the school systems.

Absolutely spot on.

reply to post by blupblup


The sad part is I can't help but feel its purposeful,under educating the populace tends to benefit a small group in power.

An Educated populous capable of reasoned debate would not be swayed by the arguments and propaganda the media tends to sell now days.

It would make it harder for the electorate to pull their Shenanigans if instead of caring what the Kardashians Or Miley Cyrus are up to, people cared that the US has been operating with out a budget and what that exactly means...

Well, some elected officials would be jobless ...

Just wanted to add that there are other ways of harming someone other than physically. Example: a child who was never physically harmed by a parent, but was verbally abused for years. Try telling that child they haven't been harmed. You can also damage someone's reputation forever with nothing more than words. Words are tricky because they can't be unheard - once they're out there, they are out there forever. If someone is already in a frail state (depression/suicidal, just recently lost a dear loved one, was previously abused), certain words can put them over the edge. So yes, words can harm.

Having said that, political and other opinions are rather impersonal, and I agree, it shouldn't harm anyone to hear an opinion they don't agree with. But to unilaterally say that words can never harm anyone is just not true.

kaylaluv
Just wanted to add that there are other ways of harming someone other than physically. Example: a child who was never physically harmed by a parent, but was verbally abused for years. Try telling that child they haven't been harmed. You can also damage someone's reputation forever with nothing more than words. Words are tricky because they can't be unheard - once they're out there, they are out there forever. If someone is already in a frail state (depression/suicidal, just recently lost a dear loved one, was previously abused), certain words can put them over the edge. So yes, words can harm.

Having said that, political and other opinions are rather impersonal, and I agree, it shouldn't harm anyone to hear an opinion they don't agree with. But to unilaterally say that words can never harm anyone is just not true.

Hi Kaylaluv...

Thanks for your comments.

Yes it's true...you can harm a child with words. Good point.

On the internet. Since you do not know me. Is there anything I could type that would harm you?

We have had respectful heated debates.

Nobody on this site has ever harmed me. Has any post ever harmed you?

reply to post by benrl




Reminds me of the Carlin quote, wont post it all but just a bit.

They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying. Lobbying to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I’ll tell you what they don’t want. They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well-informed, well-educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. That’s against their interests...

reply to post by whyamIhere

I could careless what you do or say as long as it doesn't harm me.

Define harm

Is there nothing that somebody else might do or say that wouldn't make you angry enough that you feel the need to create a thread about it?

:-)

And here I josh - seriously

But - your OP is a multilayered gift of irony - and it keeps on giving...

If words are harmless and meaningless, why do we bother with expressing ourselves at all?

reply to post by blupblup


I loved George....

I got to have breakfast with the guy in Las Vegas.

It was in the 90's....He was so bitter it was enlightening.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Expressing yourself is fine.

Words on a screen do not bother me. No matter how hard you try.

I don't know you. You have zero impact on my life.

I like to exchange ideas.

Others seem truly harmed by posts on a anonymous internet site.

I think people take the internet way too serious.

reply to post by whyamIhere


Perhaps it isn't this way for you,but it is for me. Words stem from thoughts linked to feelings,emotions,and opinions on a subject. My opinions,thoughts,are linked to my feelings and emotions. I cannot imagine simply debating a topic without feeling passionate about it. My words,and my choice of words,is an extension of ME. They become something,good or bad. Words can be used to build up or tear down. Create beauty,or poison. Has anyone here posted anything that harmed me physically,damn right. Words can be swords. I have had posts made directly to me that tore me up so much I swore I would never come back. With each one though,it made my skin thicker,my mind stronger. But make no mistake,the heart still hurts

AccessDenied
reply to post by whyamIhere

 

Perhaps it isn't this way for you,but it is for me. Words stem from thoughts linked to feelings,emotions,and opinions on a subject. My opinions,thoughts,are linked to my feelings and emotions. I cannot imagine simply debating a topic without feeling passionate about it. My words,and my choice of words,is an extension of ME. They become something,good or bad. Words can be used to build up or tear down. Create beauty,or poison. Has anyone here posted anything that harmed me physically,damn right. Words can be swords. I have had posts made directly to me that tore me up so much I swore I would never come back. With each one though,it made my skin thicker,my mind stronger. But make no mistake,the heart still hurts

Really?

I had know idea. I just can't get emotional with people I do not know.

Now, If we had to use our real names. It would change the board dramatically.

I was on this Fantasy board on Yahoo. A member started a site where we used our real names.

It completely changed everything. I now consider them friends.

It's real easy to insult, degrade and imply when you are anonymous.

However, if you made everybody use their real names. The shenanigans would stop.

Thanks for your honesty...

reply to post by whyamIhere

his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.

Couldn't agree more, but this is easy to define.

The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others.

...which also happens to be the part of the conduct that's next to impossible to define, someone might add.

You see, this concept is open to interpretation, as something that's harmful for you might not be harmful for someone else... combine this with the fact that personal boundaries vary from person to person and you have a problem.

Good? Yes.
Workable? Unfortunately not in a million years.

Just my 2 cents

reply to post by whyamIhere


Well for me,avatar,username,real name...I still regard them as a person. Even if they are debating with an opinion so vastly different from mine that I cannot even wrap my head around it. I still try my best to say exactly in my posts what I would say to their face. Sometimes I debate,sometimes I throw out condescending remarks,but that is exactly how I speak in real life,offline,to everyone. I do though,try very hard not to hurt feelings,because I put myself on the receiving end of things. If I wouldn't want it said to me,I don't want to post it.

reply to post by whyamIhere

Words on a screen do not bother me.

I don't actually believe you here

No matter how hard you try.

It's interesting to me that you think I was trying to bother you

:-)

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


You see that's the thing...you don't.

Hey, when are you going to make another Broadway Show Tunes thread?

Truly a fascinating addition to the site.

Nice try....I'm just not that into you. Sorry.

reply to post by whyamIhere


You see what I mean?

:-)

No, I don't suppose you do

You're human - just like the rest of us

(And - nice try - right back atcha. It's quite alright - I get that I'm not exactly everyone's cup of tea)