Nationalism - good or bad?

Ok, this could get abit heated, so lets try and keep this clean ok? First off, what is nationalism??

The term �nationalism� is generally used to describe two phenomena: (1) the attitude that the members of a nation have when they care about their national identity, and (2) the actions that the members of a nation take when seeking to achieve (or sustain) some form of political sovereignty. (1) raises questions about the concept of nation (or national identity), which is often defined in terms of common origin, ethnicity, or cultural ties, and while an individual's membership in a nation is often regarded as involuntary, it is sometimes regarded as voluntary. (2) raises questions about the whether sovereignty must be understood as the acquisition of full statehood with complete authority for domestic and international affairs, or whether something less is required.

plato.stanford.edu...

So we know what nationalism is, being proud of your country in a sense, but when does nationalism turn bad? When we start to play the race card or attacking other cultures?? But overall, can nationalism be a good thing??

The problem with anything is extreamism. Nationalism should not come before humaniteranism. After all, we are all human before we are a nation.

Originally posted by Jonna
The problem with anything is extreamism. Nationalism should not come before humaniteranism. After all, we are all human before we are a nation.

YEA!!!!!!!!!!!
But a lot of people don't understand that, they think about country, race, religion, before admit we are all humans!

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Originally posted by Amelia


YEA!!!!!!!!!!!
But a lot of people don't understand that, they think about country, race, religion, before admit we are all humans!

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

We know,
but try telling that to extremists and hardcore nationalists

Nationalism is one of the greatest things any nation can have...It's not something that is automatic - It's usually one of the last things a State-level society will develop...

But it's the difference between nationalism and imperialism that often becomes vague and hazy...

The funny/sad thing is, an overly imperialistic nation will always be over-run by an inhabited (ie..colonized) nation that discovers its own nationalism...

EDIT: Added a few key words - lol

[edit on 11/24/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]

I personally dont get the point with identifying me self with a flag, a religion, a football team etc.. I am me and you are you.

Originally posted by DrSpeedo
I personally dont get the point with identifying me self with a flag, a religion, a football team etc.. I am me and you are you.

True, but as you have undoubtedly witnessed, people tend to be obsessed with classifying and catagorizing everything. Me and you, us and them, etc. It is this seperation that keeps us together at the same time it divides us.

Originally posted by DrSpeedo
I personally dont get the point with identifying me self with a flag, a religion, a football team etc.. I am me and you are you.

Its a way to label us i.e white,black, young, old, Jock, Goth, Punk, etc,etc.
There are so many different groups in society that we can be link to, the most important fact is that we are all human at the end of the day.

What is the human nature?
Lonewolf or wolfpack?
Can this will to belong be biological or maybe a way for us too survive by sticking to the tribe, family etc...and this livs on these days in the form of the Fanclub for the local footballteam?
Or nothing of the I mentioned? Ideas?


[edit on 24-11-2004 by DrSpeedo]

Originally posted by DrSpeedo
What is the human nature?
Lonewolf or wolfpack?
Can this will to belong be biological or maybe a way for us too survive by sticking to the tribe, family etc...and this livs on these days in the form of the Fanclub for the local footballteam?
Or nothing of the I mentioned? Ideas?


[edit on 24-11-2004 by DrSpeedo]

Ermm...im not sure what your trying to say
When it comes to sport, we do see good nationalism (sometimes it can be bad with racist chants etc) but nationalism turns ugly when it comes down to "my country is better then yours" or "more country could wipe yours out".

[Edit]

When it comes to sport, its national pride

[edit on 24-11-2004 by infinite]

Originally posted by infinite
So we know what nationalism is, being proud of your country in a sense, but when does nationalism turn bad? When we start to play the race card or attacking other cultures?? But overall, can nationalism be a good thing??

If you think about it, the first two world wars were over nationalism. Nationalism in the balkans and eastern europe lead to the dissolution and weakening of the Austro-Hungarian empire and the subsequent strenght of Prussia as part of the Greater Germany idea. Nationalism is still a powerful poltical force in serbia and the rest of that part of the world. The arab world too has nationalist parties, like that Baath (which does actually appear to be almost national socialist) and of course the facists and nazis in wwii were nationalists.

amelia
But a lot of people don't understand that, they think about country, race, religion, before admit we are all humans!

And what does that mean? Why should the rights and needs of the nation be trampled becuase of the needs of 'humanity'? Humanity does nothing for anyone, humanity, as a group, doesn't protect anyone or help anyone or provide jobs, culture, safety or anything. Merely being a member of a species is not particularly meaningful.

Nationalism is something that everyone works for. The isrealis should have a homeland, the palestianians deserve a state, and for what? Merely existing? Nationalism, as someone pointed out, is what runs contrary to imperialism, and infact thats where its most often come into play,as a reaction against imperialism (as in the non germans in austro-hungary and others). If Nationalism is a vice, then imperialism is the virtue that undoes it.

There is a paradox when view this idea of nationalism. On the one hand you have the extremes, call it left or right, then you have the most basic concept of people acting in their own self interest: individualism. Now the character of nationalism is rooted for indivualism, vis a vis the advantages to the individual. You cannot sell nationalism to a nation, it is sold person by person, at least a critical mass of people.

Now on the question of right verses wrong on the nationalism concept, one may ask "does it work for me?" The answers to that are usually simply NO! What began as individuals acting in their own self interest becomes many acting for a few who have an even more narrow agenda. Nationalism ultimately deteriorates from a concept of self and others in a social compact, something that feels good, into the direction of blind consent.

From my part I like the idea of feeling good about my country, but it looks as if too often that good feeling translates into less awareness, and less critical recognition of what is necessary to keep it such a good country.

Patriotism, and nationalism, work best within a free country as continuing the ability to protest, to object when a country is facing the wrong course. That is just as important within a notion of duty, as fighting in the military.

Originally posted by infinite

Ermm...im not sure what your trying to say

Ahh, my queistion/thought was that if it might be a totally natural development for humans (nationalism).

After all, we are bilological beeings strifing for survival.

Individuals created societys with law and order for protection from danger. Danger could be other Individuals etc..

Now, where I live there is not that much danger, we are not afraid of any other country and we have not a nationalistic culture.
I think fear and nationalism are linked togheter....like fear and creation of society, tribes became kingdoms, and kindoms became nations






[edit on 24-11-2004 by DrSpeedo]

Originally posted by Nygdan
If you think about it, the first two world wars were over nationalism. Nationalism in the balkans and eastern europe lead to the dissolution and weakening of the Austro-Hungarian empire and the subsequent strenght of Prussia as part of the Greater Germany idea. Nationalism is still a powerful poltical force in serbia and the rest of that part of the world. The arab world too has nationalist parties, like that Baath (which does actually appear to be almost national socialist) and of course the facists and nazis in wwii were nationalists.

Agreed.
So, in a sense, nationalism is just trouble yeah? if its caused two world wars, i doubt we want to see more of it.

i'll admit i sometimes get angry at eg the French for the actions of their leaders..but i stop myself and think , what will the hatred of that country achieve....nothing

It is good to have pride in something, but blind pride must be avoided at all costs...simply look what happened in Germany

Remember all you extreme nationalists, humanity will eventually be united globally,whether you agree with it or not it is the future

Originally posted by UK Wizard
i'll admit i sometimes get angry at eg the French for the actions of their leaders..but i stop myself and think , what will the hatred of that country achieve....nothing

It is good to have pride in something, but blind pride must be avoided at all costs...simply look what happened in Germany

Remember all you extreme nationalists, humanity will eventually be united globally,whether you agree with it or not it is the future

Agreed.
But we all get mad at the French or another Country, etc. But is right to say and to think "my country is better then yours" or "My country can wipe your country off the map"...??

[edit on 24-11-2004 by infinite]

Nationalism sets us (whoever us is) apart from others. Popular nationalism tells us that we are better, more of one thing (such as productive) than others.

Nationalism built the U.S., Germany, France, GB (U.K. To others), Israel, China and a thousand other nations throughout history. Nationalism made the Spartans different and set them apart.

Nationalism, the belief that these people I/you/we/they are a part of have a difference to be proud of is the main stumbling block to internationalism. The NWO types can't deal with nationalistic groups and through some means or another will crush them.

The Old British Empire was the same- Indian nationalism drove the British out. Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, China, Mexico, Columbia and hundreds of other nations developed because the local people developed a sense of identity. Nationalism is identity.

Look at the Olympics for a fine example of nationalistic pride and goals being used to improve one's own society. Some nations believe in diversity as their own peculiar nationalistic stamp on history, the U.S. beats this drum even if it doesn't march to the tune.

�rugged individualism� makes for good movies.

Originally posted by infinite
But is right to say and to think "my country is better then yours"

Evidence can say eg.Norway's economy is better than Denmark, but whether a country is better is down to personal opinion and as long as that personal opinon doesn't hurt anyone it believe it is fine.

Originally posted by infinite
"My country can wipe your country off the map"...??

Again it could be true but its personal opinion, a person could rant and rave how powerful their country is...but as long as nobody is hurt by it let them rant i say...everyone else will most likely ignore them


[edit on 24-11-2004 by UK Wizard]

Originally posted by UK Wizard
Again it could be true but its personal opinion, a person could rant and rave how powerful their country is...but as long as nobody is hurt by it let them rant i say...everyone else will most likely ignore them

Ok then, lets take world leaders. Is it ok for Bush to say America is better then the rest of the world and all countries should do it the "American way"?

Originally posted by infinite
Ok then, lets take world leaders. Is it ok for Bush to say America is better then the rest of the world and all countries should do it the "American way"?

No...

One method of running a country could suit America but would be terrorible if say New Zealand was run in the same way.
It all down to personal opinions and cultural differences.