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CIA Torturers Hide Report, But That's Not The Worst Part

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posted on Mar, 11 2014 @ 06:10 PM
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reply to post by deadcalm
 


That document also sets the duties of the Federal Government, as I've read it a few times, actually. It's chief duty is the collective defense of the nation and us...the people.

In very rare instances, that duty and absolute will also conflict with another absolute in the form of the Bill of Rights. They are both solemn and absolute in meaning and seriousness of intent. One WILL be sacrificed in a true ticking time bomb scenario (the nuke). Which one is acceptable to sacrifice?

It may sound like the same question as the movie clip, but it isn't. The circumstances and nature of what I'd say MUST be a chain of approval through the top national command authority, to the courts...all on the record and available later is one of a couple things to set it apart. Really, the main thing though is the total removal of decision for it being done at the field level or even command level. That's a National leadership issue..and let both the President and Supreme Court stand behind it if done ...because if it ever needs done? It REALLY NEEDS done. Unfortunately now...we have no clear process, so they mickey mouse who does, who doesn't and how it's defined. Like many nations in the world.




posted on Mar, 11 2014 @ 06:16 PM
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What on Earth ever caused you to think we're better than animals? We are animals. Higher order intelligence, yes. Crafty and clever to have mastered tool making where our primate cousins are still using one time tools and making new ones every time. Yet, we are what we are.
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


Im sorry....I wasnt aware we stopped aspiring to be better than a common animal with a high order of intelligence. Last I heard, we had set the bar a tad higher than that....for the good of all.




I'm always curious what we're each imagining with the term torture and I'll bet that varies by quite a wide margin.


No doubt....however there are a common set of principals, codified in International Law regarding Crimes of War, adopted by almost all nations....regarding what constitutes torture.

What is the definition of torture and ill treatment?




The ICRC uses the broad term " ill-treatment " to cover both torture and other methods of abuse prohibited by international law, including inhuman, cruel, humiliating, and degrading treatment, outrages upon personal dignity and physical or moral coercion.

The legal difference between torture and other forms of ill treatment lies in the level of severity of pain or suffering imposed. In addition, torture requires the existence of a specific purpose behind the act – to obtain information, for example.

The various terms used to refer to different forms of ill treatment or infliction of pain can be explained as follows:

Torture: existence of a specific purpose plus intentional infliction of severe suffering or pain;

Cruel or inhuman treatment: no specific purpose, significant level of suffering or pain inflicted;

Outrages upon personal dignity: no specific purpose, significant level of humiliation or degradation.

Methods of ill treatment may be both physical and/or psychological in nature and both methods may have physical and psychological effects.


Source



posted on Mar, 11 2014 @ 07:03 PM
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reply to post by deadcalm
 



No doubt....however there are a common set of principals, codified in International Law regarding Crimes of War, adopted by almost all nations....regarding what constitutes torture.


Yes, they are. They're also broken. Regularly. In some nations, by national or federal level and in others, more at the street cop level (and I don't mean America in that sense)

I simply don't see the black/white absolutes here. Too many personal experiences in life (and I don't mean to THIS topic..as a specific reference..lol) have shown me how wrong taking absolute positions can be. They can be downright harmful to others too.

Again....when we face one of those rare situations? Defense of the United States of America and Due Process Rights will conflict. One will be sacrificed. Absolutely. They will, in rare instances, be mutually exclusive concepts for the given situation. Do we want accountability, do we not want it or do we want to pretend it hasn't been happening since a caveman beat the location of a good hunting spot out of another caveman?



posted on Mar, 11 2014 @ 07:09 PM
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Well if some scum bags in dirty nightshirts that represent no one Country, or military, are going to behead Americans, and then send out a video showing it, I am all for them being tortured.

Now, if they are a member of another Nations Military, then the 4 treaties of the Geneva Convention must be followed. We would not want our Men / Women in uniform tortured. That pretty much says it all.

On another note, With DNA evidence, or confessions, I would be ok with them torturing child molesters and child killers though. The more, the better. ~$heopleNation



posted on Mar, 11 2014 @ 07:27 PM
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reply to post by deadcalm
 


Like all cancers to a democratic society...such as torture....they always spread.

Our Federal Government has been for many Years.
Operating on the Backs of the American people.
The ones with COMMON SENSE.
Our People in Washington D.C.
Have Absolutely No COMMON SENSE.
When We The People Are Taken Out Of Our Government.
ALL COMMON SENSE IS OBLITERATED

Long Live The KING

We Are Now The Peasents and Have Been For Sometime.

THE GREAT FALL WILL COME
BE WATCHFUL BE VIGLIANT
DOWNFALL IS ON IT WAY.



posted on Mar, 11 2014 @ 07:33 PM
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bluesman1955
Like all cancers to a democratic society...such as torture....they always spread.

Our Federal Government has been for many Years.
Operating on the Backs of the American people.
The ones with COMMON SENSE.
Our People in Washington D.C.
Have Absolutely No COMMON SENSE.
When We The People Are Taken Out Of Our Government.
ALL COMMON SENSE IS OBLITERATED

Long Live The KING

We Are Now The Peasents and Have Been For Sometime.

THE GREAT FALL WILL COME
BE WATCHFUL BE VIGLIANT
DOWNFALL IS ON IT WAY.


What would be the goal of creating the downfall of Society, Unless you're just talking about bringing in a Global currency, as well as a Global Tax for a one world Military, which I do believe is their end game? ~$heopleNation



posted on Mar, 11 2014 @ 11:16 PM
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Yes, they are. They're also broken. Regularly. In some nations, by national or federal level and in others, more at the street cop level (and I don't mean America in that sense)
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


Sadly....I cannot argue with that. However...to allow it to continue in the US is unacceptable.




I simply don't see the black/white absolutes here.


Perhaps it will help to think of it in these terms....like pedophilia or rape...or slapping someones Grandma....there are simply some lines that cannot be crossed.

Torture is one of those things.




Again....when we face one of those rare situations?


Then we think of a solution that doesn't include torture. Take it right off the list of potential options. It's a war crime, it is inhumane...and it is wrong....It does not yield reliable results....how many more reasons are needed?




Do we want accountability


In the worst way....but we don't have it. The video in my original post illustrates this rather nicely...Too many secrets. Too many criminals in Washington, the White House and Wall St. shielding each other from prosecution.

A silent coup my Wrabbit2000 friend.



posted on Mar, 11 2014 @ 11:24 PM
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reply to post by deadcalm
 


I'll say I respect your opinion and this has been a very good back and forth on the topic. We disagree but without being disagreeable, and while our world views on this are, in some ways, literal planets apart? It's not so much in other ways.

I would leave you with a final thought on this though. You mention the top levels of political and military command, which is fair to mention as an ideal to hold accountable for what has already been done and may well be happening in places with no names and no map reference we'll ever see, today. It won't be them, at this stage, who would fall and be ruined by it though. It would be the normal enlisted and NCO level or civilian grade equivalent, who did what they were both told to do and thought was right in some cases.....with the full and proper belief that what they were doing was 100% legal.

Remember...Bush's AG and that crew came up with what stood as the legal interpretation for quite some time on what was and was not allowed. I'd love to see the people who did that and made that determination held accountable. I don't necessarily support going after the lower guys who likely live with far more than any court could do to them now. How to do one without the other, in that sense, would be the trick. At least for those who care to distinguish.



posted on Mar, 11 2014 @ 11:30 PM
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reply to post by crazyewok
 


Got bad news teddy,we use SAS for wet stuff.Including torture (when the mission calls for it)I would imagine JSOC uses it to.
I have bounced a fellow soldier around once for almost killing me ,that is torture.


Warfare is not to be done,torture is a lesser crime. Elect LEADERS so we don't have to go kill them anymore for secrets and lies.



posted on Mar, 12 2014 @ 12:03 AM
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I'll say I respect your opinion
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


And I yours....




this has been a very good back and forth on the topic.


Agreed.




Remember...Bush's AG and that crew came up with what stood as the legal interpretation for quite some time on what was and was not allowed. I'd love to see the people who did that and made that determination held accountable.


As would I...more than you know...they must be brought to justice, and hopefully they will be. But we will have to force them to...they don't have the willpower it seems to execute the responsibilities of their positions required by law.




I would leave you with a final thought on this though. You mention the top levels of political and military command, which is fair to mention as an ideal to hold accountable for what has already been done and may well be happening in places with no names and no map reference we'll ever see, today. It won't be them, at this stage, who would fall and be ruined by it though.


I disagree...we know who they are...there is no mystery here. We simply force our government to actually do what the law requires. The rest takes care of itself.




It would be the normal enlisted and NCO level or civilian grade equivalent, who did what they were both told to do and thought was right in some cases.....with the full and proper belief that what they were doing was 100% legal.


It has been a pleasure Wrabbit...and I will leave you with this....

The same argument you just made was brought up at the Nuremburg Trials.....trials of Nazi war criminals as you'll surely recall.

After great debate...it was decided that the defence of "I was only following orders" was an insufficient excuse for committing war crimes and they were prosecuted for their part in those attrocities.




Under the Nuremberg Principles, you have an obligation NOT to follow the orders of leaders who are preparing crimes against peace and crimes against humanity. We are all bound by what U.S. Chief Prosecutor Robert K. Jackson declared in 1948: [T]he very essence of the [Nuremberg] Charter is that individuals have intentional duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience imposed by the individual state.” At the Tokyo War Crimes trial, it was further declared “[A]nyone with knowledge of illegal activity and an opportunity to do something about it is a potential criminal under international law unless the person takes affirmative measures to prevent commission of the crimes.”




The law must apply to everyone...or it is meaningless.



posted on Mar, 12 2014 @ 12:21 AM
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reply to post by deadcalm
 


One last thought..


The same argument you just made was brought up at the Nuremburg Trials.....trials of Nazi war criminals as you'll surely recall.


No.. It absolutely wasn't. I added one critical and key thing to what I said, in having a pretty good idea of the mindset and recalling quite well the times of the early years of the war. Some saw through it (or now claim to have) much sooner than others, but for a majority of the nation, the first couple years especially were in a defensive mindset with legitimate threats.

What I added there was that, at least in some cases, the guys who would have done some of this believed it was the right thing to do. "Just following orders" is a very different thing as a weak deflection and excuse. There are people, myself included as you've seen, who do feel there are legitimate, albeit rare conditions where this is not only acceptable, but a duty and requirement for the safety of the public. Rare...but real.

So..not Nuremberg. Definitely, absolutely, no comparison. On that, we may just agree to disagree.



posted on Mar, 12 2014 @ 02:17 AM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


You can imagine those situations all you want, but you will never hear the truth about the situation so why bother supporting it?

All scum since the beginning of time have used it against one another , and are now in an upswing it seems of doing it more and more.

TV shows are using it all to often to sway the public to the good of it, yet no one will ever know truly if it worked.

Torture will never be used against the highest levels of scum because they are the ones ordering it to be done to others so it never happens to them.

When is someone going to come up with a way to smoke out the real problems behind all these powerplays, and stop talking about these games that go on, torture is used all too often for FUN flat out.



posted on Mar, 12 2014 @ 02:31 AM
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What I added there was that, at least in some cases, the guys who would have done some of this believed it was the right thing to do.
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


I'm sorry Wrabbit...agree to disagree for sure... and with all due respect...what they did or didn't believe is irrelevant....and they cannot claim they were just following orders...the Nuremburg comparison is a fair one my friend....the Nazis also believed that what they did was the right thing to do. Hitler also fervently claimed the legality of his endeavours..

In the end Wrabbit, it was not what they believed that got them hanged.....it was what they did.

Even the US UCMJ states clearly that a soldier has the obligation not to carry out an illegal order. The Nuremburg Principals are the basis for this.

Torture ... is also illegal under American Law, despite the secret legal justifications that supposedly make it legal somehow.

But perhaps you're right in that there may be some salvation for the lower ranks in that somewhere...but I'm not sure that their should be.

As for the officers and politicians who were responsible for this...they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law without question.


Dare to dream eh?



posted on Mar, 12 2014 @ 11:30 AM
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Torture is still practiced world wide and it effectiveness has nothing to do with physically or mentally harming someone. In the Reich from 1938 on the 'threat' of torture was all they needed. They had gained such a reputation for brutally person could not wait to spill it. Same thing here.

The problem with al-qedia was the operatives spent countless hours, days and months in Counter-Interrogation procedures.



posted on Mar, 12 2014 @ 11:40 AM
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reply to post by spooky24
 


Funny you should mention that on the training some of the 'mainline' (as I'd think of them) Al Qaeda people got. The ones who actually went through the camps and the training pipeline, back when it was intact or to whatever has now replaced it.

A guy who went through it before 9/11 happened in Afghanistan and reporting back to German and French intelligence after coming out the other end described some of that. They don't simulate torture, but DO it for the training. More so, depending on what is intended for the shahid being trained. They're no less hard core than our own 'elite' training in how far they take some specific aspects, that's for sure.
edit on 12-3-2014 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 12 2014 @ 03:07 PM
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Where do you get your information?
Have you ever had to deal with these Muslum extremists? No, obviously not. And it obvious you side with them.
Another Obama supporter in drag.



posted on Mar, 12 2014 @ 05:07 PM
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Another Obama supporter in drag.
reply to post by daveinats
 


You must have me confused with somebody else...I wouldn't cross the street to pee on Obama's teeth if his gums were on fire.




Where do you get your information?


I think the question on everyones mind at this point is....where do YOU get your information?



posted on Mar, 12 2014 @ 10:20 PM
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We all know the CIA is in bed with the NSA...and that both agencies need to put out of commission. Keeping perhaps a small remnant of the CIA just for .. you know...spying on our enemies?

Calling out the CIA was probably the best thing that Diane F has ever done, too bad it took someone spying on her, for her to act but...you take the small victories wherever you can.

Funny how this thread gets derailed into an anti Obama...dem vs lib farce again. Can't you guys stay on track? Topic? and fight the real enemy?



posted on Mar, 13 2014 @ 05:35 AM
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Wrabbit2000
reply to post by deadcalm
 


I'm sorry but we absolutely disagree.

I'd refer you to the studies and personal testimonies from the Vietnam War. The fact torture breaks a man like an animal is established by hard hard experience from men who lived it to know that truth as a first hand reality.

Is what that requires worth it? That seems the question.


That's kind of the point. You get information, you'll get everything the person knows. The problem is, in getting that information they'll also make a lot of stuff up. Someone under torture will say anything in order to get it to stop. Sometimes that's the truth, but what happens when the truth isn't good enough? The degree of confidence with information is very low. The only way you can improve that is to get a lot of people, and use widespread torture, then keep track of what things are repeated by the victims. That happened to the US in Vietnam... but we just picked a few people and tortured them. Which is the worst possible way to go about it.



posted on Mar, 13 2014 @ 09:10 AM
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reply to post by Aazadan
 



That happened to the US in Vietnam... but we just picked a few people and tortured them. Which is the worst possible way to go about it.


I'll disagree with that about how limited I think it's been over the past decade or more. A few people are what have been among the publicly known prisoners and the Gitmo bunch. Gitmo always has been the showcase and why I've really shaken my head at people suggesting it's the center of all abuse or something. (Pizza, Pepsi and $750,000 Soccer fields... Some hardship) It's the one place acknowledged to exist at all for the IRC to visit or attorneys everywhere to even know to put down for an address someone might have gone to. Even that, for prisoner records, are public. (If not fully intended..they sure became that way. Sets are available around the net for detailed stuff on each prisoner still there).

The world wide network of prisons I strongly believe to have existed...or still does, is a whole different matter. The movie 'Rendition' attempted to capture a piece of that with interviews at the end to give light on real first hand experiences from within the black network. Those were still people who came back out and are known after that. I doubt many if not most who went that route DID come back out. Torture has been widespread, IMO...and part of why I think absolute accountability, not a denial of it being a tool in war and extreme circumstance, is more realistic.

We got what we set out to get, by using this, I believe....but at what cost and what did we create among our own people in the process? Realistic debates we've not yet faced as a nation, IMO.




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