CIA Torturers Hide Report, But That's Not The Worst Part

I came across this segment on the Young Turks yesterday in relation to the US doctrine of torture practiced by the CIA...one that as all will know...has been staunchly defended by all the usual villains ie. Bush, Cheney and the gang...and for all you who still support Barak Obama...he happily continues them as you will see...I have been following this story for a long time and by my mind, as with a lot of stories....it has not gotten the coverage it deserves.

It's only 5 mins, 24 seconds long but it sums up the absurdity that government has anything close to effective oversight of the CIA/ NSA....and that they are for all intents and purposes....rogue elements of the US Gov.



In case the player isn't working....HERE

Now it has been well known for decades that torture is useless for extracting worthwhile intelligence. Not to mention, the legal aspects...which are that torture is illegal under US law as well as International Law and constitutes a War Crime. It reminds me of an old saying..."be careful the shadow you chase...does not become the one that you cast".

The other aspect to this story is that the NSA is spying on everyone, virtually....EVERYWHERE. The 5 "EYES" making up this security juggernaut, that includes the NSA, are skirting thier OWN domestic laws, by having one of the other members spy on their citizens for them.

This puts us in a very dangerous place no matter how you look at it. Everything has been infiltrated....chat rooms, forums, e-mail, snapchats...total full spectrum dominance over everything....being stored in government databases...being sifted for punishment and amusement, while we watch all of our freedoms disappear...

Also ironic considering the US is currently running around the world preaching about democracy and the right to self determination....always calling for transparency and NEVER OFFERING ANY.

For any wishing to read the McClatchy article mentioned in the video you can find it....

HERE

It's a very good article and well worth the read.

Enjoy!

reply to post by deadcalm

Torture is nothing to be proud of.

It doesnt make anyone a "tough guy".

Its actually a very shameful, disgusting and cowardly act especially when committed/condoned by a society which considers itself to be moral or educated.

I thought the following was a very telling tale. One of many stories.

And its not just the CIA.

And its not just the CIA.

reply to post by gladtobehere


Like all cancers to a democratic society...such as torture....they always spread.

Thanks for the post!

Torture, Enhanced interrogation, what ever its called, does one thing.

It cheapens us as a whole, it makes the Ideals this country was founded on, things like Due Process a Joke.

Even the most vile and evil of us deserves Due Process, not because of who they are or what they did, but because of who we are and who we claim to be as a Society.

How we treat the least of us, our "enemy" prisoners, says more about us as a Society, any american should be disgusted by the process.

Even the most vile and evil of us deserves Due Process, not because of who they are or what they did, but because of who we are and who we claim to be as a Society.

reply to post by benrl


Nicely said. All of it in fact.

In addition, it also further illustrates just how broken the US Government is, and how far it has strayed from rule of law.

Does the op believe that the CIA alone uses these tactics?As all major world powers do the same.

I read this book many years ago in the 90's. It's very good on their "techniques".

"Journey Into Madness: Medical Torture and the Mind ...Journey Into Madness: The True Story of Secret CIA Mind Control"

www.amazon.com/Journey-Into...Control.../0553053574‎CachedSimilar

"Journey Into Madness: The True Story of Secret CIA Mind Control and Medical ... the fate of mid-East hostages, and the regrettable history of experimentation on ... of the hunt for Dr. Aziz al-Abub, Iranian Hezbollah medical doctor who tortured, ... appearing on videos to claim self-determination rights for occupied Lebanon."

Does the op believe that the CIA alone uses these tactics?As all major world powers do the same.

reply to post by TDawg61


Setting aside the morality of torturing another human being....it is illegal and for very good reason. It is unproductive on many levels. So why do it? Just to be vicious? I thought the US believed itself to be "exceptional"? Don't they use that as a justification for interventionism abroad? That they have a superior moral imperative to police the very world itself?

Also...just because some countries choose to hang around the bottom of the barrel, doesn't mean that the US has to join them there. Torture is a tactic only used by ruthless, uncivilized societies...with no value at all for human rights or common decency.

TDawg61
Does the op believe that the CIA alone uses these tactics?As all major world powers do the same.

Doesnt make it right.

Especialy one that forbids it in there own constitution.

You damed well dont derseve to call yourselfs "the land of the free" or have any right to any form of moral high ground while its going on.

Welcome to the club Senators, how does it feel?
- The American People

ETA: I love what he says about Obama at the end. Oh the tears, so delicious.

Oh the tears, so delicious.

reply to post by schadenfreude


I know right? It was a damning indictment of Obama's Presidency.

gladtobehere
reply to post by deadcalm

 

Torture is nothing to be proud of.

It doesnt make anyone a "tough guy".

Its actually a very shameful, disgusting and cowardly act especially when committed/condoned by a society which considers itself to be moral or educated.

I thought the following was a very telling tale. One of many stories.

And its not just the CIA.

edit on 10-3-2014 by gladtobehere because: wording

I agree that torture is a horrible, horrible, thing to condone....

Anyone who thinks it's NOT necessary, go ahead and watch the Samuel L. Jackson movie "Unthinkable" and tell me how you feel about torture after watching that movie.

Yes, the movie IS fiction, but the premise is not only possible, but likely, and the scenario painted could absolutely happen, and the result of NOT torturing someone that NEEDS to be tortured could result in the death of Millions and Millions of people.

So the dilemma is, do you act as the bad guy, and kill 3 people, or do you act as an even badder guy, and because you refuse to do what's necessary, be responsible for the deaths of 15-20 million people?

I'd kill the 3 people before I let 20 million die, that's just me though.



The reality of it is simple. Sometimes there IS no alternative. Do I think they should torture everyone? No, but when the stakes are as high as millions of people, I don't think you have a choice.

Do you torture a guy for feeding iguanas? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Do you torture somebody who has hidden 3 nuclear bombs throughout the US, and you can confirm that the threat is real, and you're on a clock?

You don't have a choice.

I highly suggest anybody who hasn't seen this movie, definitely do so. It's a brilliant film.

reply to post by Laykilla


No. Never. No. Its wrong. Just, no.

The US claims the moral high ground and has been caught writing new chapters in the book on how to torture. One of the reasons the US does so is its claim that it sets a queen and will know no sorrow. In other words, safe from foreign invasion or can buy off those that would prosecute her because she holds the worlds reserve currency.

Once the money changes so does the clout. The only way the US could continue in such a sheltered position is if backed financially and assumes the role of a junkyard dog to police the world against anyone who doesn't tote the line. You can bet your bottom dollar she will as she knows no shame.

Trying to place all the blame on the government or different agencies merely shifts it from those that can put an end to it, the people, but they refuse to do so. Cutting out the cancer doesn't put an end to it, it just slows it down for awhile. If you want to cure the ailment, them starve it to death. Take away its ability to operate (fuel) and it will stop but only the people can do this. If the people refuse to do that which is just and moral, then they are just as guilty as those that do these crimes.

Laykilla


So the dilemma is, do you act as the bad guy, and kill 3 people, or do you act as an even badder guy, and because you refuse to do what's necessary, be responsible for the deaths of 15-20 million people?

I'd kill the 3 people before I let 20 million die, that's just me though.



The reality of it is simple. Sometimes there IS no alternative. Do I think they should torture everyone? No, but when the stakes are as high as millions of people, I don't think you have a choice.

the JUST way of doing it is ... yes, you have to torture or kill or whatever necessary evil that fits accordingly... however in doing so you must become the martyr and commit seppuku...

that is the only possible way for it to be atoned for, if you do not agree to the self disembowelment then you do not get to commit said vicious act upon another human being.

Honor: a lost sentiment in the modern age

You don't have a choice.

reply to post by Laykilla


There are always choices.

Although this scenario of yours is interesting and gets the heart rate up with the thoughts of grand triumphs in the name of patriotism...you might just have to get your hands dirty and all that....let me throw some cold water on your patriotic wet dream. Come back to reality with me.....

The CIA torture has netted the US...get ready for it....NOTHING. It has been a "dismal failure"...and now the CIA is blocking a Senate investigation that backs up this fact, as well as an internal investigation that backs it up...with the help of the peace president himself....Barak Obama. Now enter the NSA, which is spying on everyone...including the US Senators and Aides investigating them. Not exactly the stuff of a patriotic Hollywood blockbuster is it?

Let's get real here...the US has been holding, around 160+ people in Guantanamo (an illegal military occupation of Cuba BTW) for 12 years.... most of them without charge or trial. Some 80+ of them were cleared for release YEARS ago...as in the US knows they are innocent of any terrorism against the US....BUT THEY WON'T LET THEM GO.!!

Face it man...the US has lost it's way.....

Revealed: How Khalid Sheik Mohammed cracked after CIA kept him awake for 180 hours STRAIGHT

New book by retired CIA official reveals waterboarding and other 'enhanced interrogation' didn't work on September 11 mastermind

By DAILY MAIL REPORTER

PUBLISHED: 16:25 GMT, 6 May 2012 | UPDATED: 05:49 GMT, 7 May 2012

Kahlid Sheik Mohammed didn't crack after CIA interrogators pushed him around, slapped him, physically intimidated him or waterboarded him 183 times.

The mastermind of the September 11 terrorist attacks was finally spilled his information about upcoming al-Qaeda plots after he was kept awake for 180 hours -- seven and a half days -- straight.

Source

Can you even imagine living through a simulated drowning 183 times? Or what it would be like to be abused and kept awake for seven and a half days? What would you be willing to tell someone to make something like that stop?

Sleep depravation is particularily nasty....

In a torture or interrogation scenario, sleep deprivation tactics are used to bring about a change in psychological state, although the associated effects on the body’s immune system and vital functions will undoubtably cause additional damage. Lack of sleep brings about a number of neurobiological effects affecting reaction time, memory and and cognitive functions. It also has the effect of quickly bringing about hypnagogic hallucinations – feelings of ‘altered reality’ caused by the incursion of REM activity into wakefulness. Prolong these conditions and it can lead to severe moral and emotional impairment and ultimately psychosis.

Can Sleep Deprivation Kill You?

Thankfully we live a world where science is constrained by strict ethical guidelines. So we’ll never know definitively whether or not a lack of sleep can be fatal to humans. However there are several studies on animals which demonstrate that staying awake indefinitely can indeed eventually kill.

I have found that by experimenting on 10 puppies that the complete deprivation of sleep for four or five days (96 to 120 hours) causes irreparable lesions in the organism and in spite of every care these experiments could not be saved. Complete absence of sleep during this period is fatal to puppies, in spite of the food taken during this time..
Origins of Neuroscience: A History of Explorations into Brain Function -Stanley Finger (1994)

Source

Not very nice is it?


This is not some movie....these are real human beings and this is real life. The CIA did not save millions of lives by torturing people like this man above....it didn't work.

Clearly...it was not worth it to trade your humanity for....nothing. Think about that.


All that aside...torture never works...it is well known, and has been known, for a very long time.

Neuroscience:Torture Doesn't Work and Here's Why

HERE

Top Interrogation Experts all say torture doesn't work

HERE

reply to post by deadcalm


tried to read the newsweek article. apparently i have read more than 5 articles this month there. Without ever in my life having had clicked on their site. Can you hook up some excerpts for us plebes?

reply to post by Laykilla


To demonstrate its "success", the pro-torture maniacs always point to this clown:



"Khalid Sheikh Mohammed".

Anyone see the list of crap that this guy "admitted to"?

The torture was "so successful" that he admitted to EVERYTHING.

It didnt matter what they accused him of, he was like "yes yes, of-course, just stop punching me".

"Detainee" says he lied to CIA in harsh interrogations.

"I make up stories," Mohammed said, describing in broken English an interrogation probably administered by the CIA concerning the whereabouts of Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden. "Where is he? I don't know. Then, he torture me," Mohammed said of his interrogator. "Then I said, 'Yes, he is in this area.'"

People still havent gotten the memo, its not ok for a government to be tyrannical just because the tyranny is taking place somewhere else.

The tyranny always comes home.

Torture works. Torture works 100% absolutely, 100% of the time. The question only becomes whether a society is willing to see it's people turned into the monsters required to inflict that over the sustained period required for the results one would want to get.

We don't need to look to Iraq, Afghanistan or even anyone outside our own nation to know torture works, 100% of the time. We need only look at our own American servicemen and look to the last time a large number to go by had to endure torture and then come back out of it to debrief what happened.

Prior to Vietnam the attitude among the US military was ...No one breaks. Period. Cowards break. Don't be a coward!

AFTER the Vietnam war, all that changed. Now it's a given expectation to each man and woman that they will hold out for a given number of days/hours. Enough time to change the most critical of whatever they knew to give upon capture. That, being a clear nod to the lessons of Vietnam. Torture applied seriously and over time with *NO* psychological hope allowed to remain of the pain EVER stopping without truth time coming in stereo will produce the desired result. Again..our own people proved it under horrible circumstances to the extremes of human endurance.

Personally, if torture has any place, I believe it should be under the tools of old, like Torture Warrants (look that one up for who used them..it wasn't America). If done within the system and by order or a court for those rare cases, records would exist of who did what to whom and what came of it. Accountability later.....among other things. Critical details like that.

On the other hand...Maybe producing the monsters necessary is just a step beyond where we ever want to choose to go as a society in the first place. I tend to think so in all but the most extreme 'ticking time bomb' scenario. In that one? I wouldn't call it torture...but the systematic dis-assembly of the suspect terrorist until they squeal something other than pain.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


To be fair I would not be bothered if America had torture warrants to be used under extreme circumstances and not to extract confessions to be used in court. With proper records kept.

BUT only if they remove the part about cruel and unusual punishment form the US constitution.

You cant say one thing and do another or act like you have the moral high ground, your either down and dirty or your not.