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The Act of Choosing.

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posted on Mar, 13 2014 @ 11:25 AM
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reply to post by Cuervo
 





What makes it not a substance? We can all attest to it being there and we can evaluate it either being there or not being there.

We've known of many things throughout history long before we were able to measure them. That is why we achieved ways to measure them.

The only evidence that leads to our consciousness being a product of our biology is that they can remove the connection we have to the world and then record the lack of consciousness. All that proves is that our interface is needed to interact with the world with our consciousness. There are tons of anecdotal cases that say the opposite and that our bodies are not required for consciousness.

This is sort of like in ages past when they debated that thunder was holy wrath from the gods. We knew it existed and we studied it until we concluded that it was not some divine anger issues. What we did not do was hide it in a corner and say it was just a part of the sky and therefore had no unique properties or identity.


The fact that it has no substantive properties makes it not a substance. It is an abstract term, meaning it has no concrete reality. It is the state of being aware, but what is it that is in that state? What we are evaluating in regards to consciousness is always the functioning or non-functioning of the human body. There's nothing else we are measuring or observing.

Consciousness isn't a product of anything because it has no qualities. Like all abstract terms it has no properties. When we remove the "connection we have with the world" it is because we have done something to the body. Injuries, strokes, narcotics, disease, lack of sleep, sleep itself—all could be said to affect consciousness. But what is really being affected? The body and its function.

We cannot hide something that doesn't exist. The sound of thunder is still the result of naturally existing phenomena ie. lightning. Lightning is observed, thunder is observed, gods were imagined. The body is observed, its function is observed, consciousness is imagined.




posted on Mar, 13 2014 @ 11:36 AM
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Prezbo369

Cuervo
The only evidence that leads to our consciousness being a product of our biology is that they can remove the connection we have to the world and then record the lack of consciousness. All that proves is that our interface is needed to interact with the world with our consciousness. There are tons of anecdotal cases that say the opposite and that our bodies are not required for consciousness.


What about people that suffer brain/head injuries any develop completely new personalities? or receive brain damage and are unable to look after themselves anymore?

I know a man that after crashing his motorbike and hitting his head on the ground incredibly hard, has since become very aggressive, left his wife and family and is now in jail, a complete 180 to how he was previously. All down to the trauma and damage his brain received.

If consciousness is anything other than a product of a brain, why do these things happen? and can you give an example of a (confirmed) consciousness that didn't come with a squishy brain?


Imagine your body as a drone and your consciousness as the pilot. The drone represents the will of the pilot and the pilot expresses herself through the drone. If the drone were to be shot and no longer capable of making left turns or started shooting at random people, there would be no way for the pilot to correct this. People on the ground would just assume the pilot is a dick or insane yet she is actually helpless with only a few options.

As far as providing examples, perhaps somebody can start a thread on that. The growing popularity of the holomovement physics model might change some mainstream understanding of the subject someday so maybe I'll start a thread on it eventually. I think you'd dig it.



posted on Mar, 13 2014 @ 11:43 AM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


I don't see a conclusive wrap-up happening here. As much as I love this type of discussion, I don't think we'll see eye-to-eye. We both agree on the definition of "substance" but that doesn't help. The reason is because you see consciousness as a descriptive go-to for labeling a state. I see it as something I feel and can explore.

Having experienced what I have makes it impossible to convince me otherwise (as with countless other people who explore it) and it is just as unlikely to convince you of something you do not feel. I hate to chalk disagreements up to experiential incompatibilities (seems like a cop out when others do it) but I can't keep going round and round nor do I think you are wrong, given what you are presented with.

It's like the old atheism vs theism debate. With what we can confirm with empirical data, there is no way to currently reconcile the two camps. Someday, for sure but not now.



posted on Mar, 13 2014 @ 11:48 AM
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reply to post by Cuervo
 


I can appreciate your view. I also love discussing this stuff.



I see it as something I feel and can explore.


Out of curiosity, what of consciousness do you feel and explore?



posted on Mar, 13 2014 @ 12:09 PM
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LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Cuervo
 


I can appreciate your view. I also love discussing this stuff.



I see it as something I feel and can explore.


Out of curiosity, what of consciousness do you feel and explore?


I feel mine when I think. I see others' when I look for it. Not to get all new-agey or anything but the spirit is the cornerstone for my life path and profession. I work with the other side daily (here's where I'm probably gonna lose my credibility with you) and, as a practicing witch, I live, breath, and literally eat "spirituality" (sometimes I really hate that cliche word but it fits in this case). I live an enchanted life and do my best to provide that for others as well.

I literally have seen the lights in a crowd of people as they shuffle through a crowded theater, blue and iridescent, emanating from the center of their heads. I give accurate guidance to clients who appreciate my intimate knowledge of them.

Essentially, the things I deal with are only possible if our consciousness is housed somewhere off-site where they are connected with each other. Not to sound glib, but somewhere out there, you and I might be discussing our naivety of the subject over tea (the magic kind, of course, hah).

I hope I didn't just go down several pegs in your book but you did ask so I answered as authentically as I can. I'm not trying to convince you nor do I think it's necessary for you to agree. Sometimes, our incarnations are just meant to explore the solid things in life and do not require anything further. We are on different paths and consensus not necessary nor always helpful.

But yeah, it sure is a blast to talk about sometimes.



posted on Mar, 13 2014 @ 12:45 PM
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reply to post by Cuervo
 





I feel mine when I think. I see others' when I look for it. Not to get all new-agey or anything but the spirit is the cornerstone for my life path and profession. I work with the other side daily (here's where I'm probably gonna lose my credibility with you) and, as a practicing witch, I live, breath, and literally eat "spirituality" (sometimes I really hate that cliche word but it fits in this case). I live an enchanted life and do my best to provide that for others as well.

I literally have seen the lights in a crowd of people as they shuffle through a crowded theater, blue and iridescent, emanating from the center of their heads. I give accurate guidance to clients who appreciate my intimate knowledge of them.

Essentially, the things I deal with are only possible if our consciousness is housed somewhere off-site where they are connected with each other. Not to sound glib, but somewhere out there, you and I might be discussing our naivety of the subject over tea (the magic kind, of course, hah).

I hope I didn't just go down several pegs in your book but you did ask so I answered as authentically as I can. I'm not trying to convince you nor do I think it's necessary for you to agree. Sometimes, our incarnations are just meant to explore the solid things in life and do not require anything further. We are on different paths and consensus not necessary nor always helpful.

But yeah, it sure is a blast to talk about sometimes.


Very interesting. Your honesty is appreciated.

I too live through spirituality. I likely see spirituality and the spirit differently than you do—we probably all see it differently—but so much the better. Diversity of views makes life more interesting; and yours sounds very interesting. I'm glad I could hear them. I wish I had the gift of seeing colors emanate from peoples heads, but I make do with what I can see.

I think the things you deal with are possible without the idea of consciousness. But something like that may be difficult to prove.

And yes, magic tea, I enjoy a cup now and then. It is the cure for my headaches.



posted on Mar, 14 2014 @ 03:12 PM
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sorry... it won't let me post.I can't figure out why.I'll try again later.


edit on 14-3-2014 by Rex282 because: (no reason given)




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