can BRAHMOS take on a super-carrier?, page 4
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reply posted on 6-12-2004 @ 06:43 AM by Lucretius
while I dig out the link for you Engineer.... here is some other information I think might interest you

"The Author
Roger Thompson is Professor of Military Studies at Knightsbridge University and a Fellow of the Inter-University Seminar on Armed Forces and Society.

In 1981, The NATO exercise Ocean Venture ended with much embarrassment for the U.S. Navy, and more specifically, its enormously expensive aircraft carrier battle groups.

During the exercise, a Canadian submarine slipped quietly through a carrier's destroyer screen, and conducted a devastating simulated torpedo attack on the ship. The submarine was never detected, and when the exercise umpire, a U.S. Navy officer, pronounced the carrier dead, his official report was promptly stamped classified to minimize the potential fallout. Unfortunately, a Canadian submariner leaked the story to a local newspaper, and indicated that this successful Canadian attack on an American supercarrier was by no means an isolated incident. This news caused quite a stir in Congress, and the U.S. Navy had a lot of explaining to do. Why indeed had a small, 1960s-vintage diesel submarine of the under-funded Canadian Navy been able to defeat one of America s most powerful and expensive warships, and with such apparent ease?

There are several possible answers. Firstly, Canadian submariners are extremely well trained and professional. Secondly, at that time, the Oberon submarines used by the Canadian Navy were probably the quietest in the world. A third possible reason, not so commonly stated, and with all due respect, is that the mighty U.S. Navy is simply overrated. It is my humble contention that the U.S. Navy is not all it's cracked up to be, and that is the focus of the present article.

Diesel Subs Feast on U.S. Carriers

While Canadian submarines have routinely taken on U.S. Navy carriers, other small navies have enjoyed similar victories. The Royal Netherlands Navy, with its small force of extremely quiet diesel submarines, has made the U.S. Navy eat the proverbial slice of humble pie on more than one occasion. In 1989, naval analyst Norman Polmar wrote in Naval Forces that during NATO s exercise Northern Star, the Dutch submarine Zwaardvis was the only orange (enemy) submarine to successfully stalk and sink a blue (allied) aircraft carrier Ten years later there were reports that the Dutch submarine Walrus had been even more successful in the exercise JTFEX/TMDI99.

During this exercise the Walrus penetrates the U.S. screen and sinks many ships, including the U.S. aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt CVN-71. The submarine launches two attacks and manages to sneak away. To celebrate the sinking the crew designed a special T- shirt. Fittingly, the T-shirt depicted the USS Theodore Roosevelt impaled on the tusks of a walrus. It was also reported that the Walrus also sank many of the Roosevelt's escorts, including the nuclear submarine USS Boise, a cruiser, several destroyers and frigates, plus the command ship USS Mount Whitney. The Walrus herself survived the exercise with no damage.

Not to be outdone by the Canadians and Dutch, the Australian submarine force has also scored many goals against U.S. Navy carriers and nuclear submarines. On September 24 2003, the Australian newspaper The Age disclosed that Australia's Collins class diesel submarines had taught the U.S. Navy a few lessons during multinational exercises. By the end of the exercises, Australian submarines had destroyed two U.S. Navy nuclear attack submarines and an aircraft carrier. According to the article: The Americans were wide-eyed, Commodore Deeks (Commander of the RAN Submarine Group) said. They realized that another navies knows how to operate submarines.
They were quite impressed."


reply posted on 11-12-2004 @ 02:34 PM by psteel
Bramos is only got a frontal cross section of 0.26m², even with the fines is still about 1.3m². That assumes basic metal construction with no attempts at stealth in the design.

That means the AEW planes will under ideal conditions detect the Bramos at ~150nm and these planes don't patrol much more than 50nm from the carrier. Thats a warning of maybe 200nm or 340km. That gives you 7-8 minutes to react to the inbounds. If the missile is stealthy the detection range will be less , maybe 200km and reaction time down to about 4 minutes.

That means to have any chance to intercept these inbounds, CAP has to be within ~100km or less [including range of AAM]. How many CAP would be flying within that radius at one time? Each carrier has only 24 fighters of which at most 1/2 would be airborn at anygiven time. So thats 12 fighters each carring a pair of long range AAMs. Maybe 48 AAMs under ideal circumstance of two carriers in the battlegroup.


Once any missiles penetrate the fighter cap they have to overcome ship based area airdefence with rapid multi hit capability [IE Aegis]. Each carrier should have 4 Ageis destroyers with upto 60 Standard 2 or 3 SAMs, capable of launching and tracking upto 8 SAMs in each wave...IE 32 SAMs for the escorts of each carrier. Since SAM speed is equal to anti ship missile speed first intercept could occur at maybe 90km under ideal circumstances. with second wave intercepts occuring at ~ 35km and final wave at ~ 6km. Short range SAM may have a volley at that distance as well but that will be it, since CIWS are useless against such a high velocity missile....even if they hit , the debrie field will shred the target knocking it out of the war anyway.

So we have upto 48 x AAM in the outer layer and 64 x SAMs in each of the 1st , 2nd , 3rd Standard waves and one final close in wave.So against that back drop on Antishipping missile has zero chance of getting through to hit the CVN or any ship in the taskforce.

But these are under ideal circumstances, which we all know never happen in real war time. First off everything hinges on the ability of the AWACS plane to operate and detect. Just the act of attacking the AEW first may cancel it out. WHy because the plane will have to undergo evasive maneuver while the CAP move to intercept the attacking fighters. If coordinated right ,that moves them away from a planed ASM attack area and uses up some or all of the CAP missiles/sorties ,since if nothing else the fighters would have to break of to refuel [air to air]. So at most 1/2 the CAP jets would be dispatched to intercept the inbounds reducing the AAMs by two. DO this again with a second inbound fight and the number of CAP AAMs down to 1/4 etc etc.

This also presupposes the initial wave of attacking jets don't carry the latest russian designed anti AEW missiles, which could very well shut the AWACS down all together resulting in the same loss of detection, without wasting jets on diversionary attacks.

But that supposes you have unlimited jets to throw away in such diversionary attacks. So don't wast your efforts and send decoys instead. Given enough decoys you would overwhelm the airdefence and prevent the AEW from doing anything other than alerting the battle group they are under attack. Cessnas will reflectors will do the trick or any one of a number of 'civilian' planes.

With the CAP out of the way, the 1st wave SAM volleys are out too since they rely on over the horizon handoff targets from the AEW and LOS limits SAM to a LOS of about 35km against a low flying missile. That means 1st wave is at 10-15km and there is only time for another wave of close in SAMs.

But even this may be optimistic cause battlegroup area defence can be defeated by other means....numerous cheap fast patrol boats disguised as fisheries trawlers etc,break cover and dash in on the battle group forcing to split the defence between surface and air threats. Throw in a maurading SSK or two and that defence is split three ways. Such SSKs are deadly in exercises, We've all read about the Norwegian SSK sinking the RN carrier battle group in a simulated battle off the coast of Norway ,and then there is the Austrailan collins SSK that sunk the US CVN in an exercise resently.

Against that back drop a wave of a couple of dozen Brahmos could very well overwhelm a carrier group and putting it out of a war.

Think its impossible, I gather thats roughly what General Ripper did in that Millinum challenge exercise back in 2002...which is why they said he cheated
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