can BRAHMOS take on a super-carrier?

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posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 02:13 AM
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Can Brahmos take on a super-carrier?

First of all. I wouldn't advise trying...

The short answer is not a chance. But here's the long answer...(By super-carrier, I assume you mean a USN CVN, so my response is tailored to that scenario).

To get inside a CVN Strike force is going to be exceptionally difficult. A USN CSF on wartime footing has a layered screen that goes out almost 1000km. Anything that hits the 800km perimeter is automatically scaled at a threat level. Not to mention the fact that there will also be 2-3 Aegis AB's in escort and a minimum of 1 Tico.

Brahmos has 300km range, so the enemy ship must come within that range to the Carrier and can be sunk before it launches the cruise missile. But let's just say somehow it gets one off before it sinks. E-2C hawkeye detects the missile and notifies the defensive systems to calculate and intercept.

CVN is now travelling at flank, running evasion and also (in current scenarios) NETFORCEd with every other ship in the fleet and any other platform within a 1000 k's, that means that in current scenarios, there will be another CSF adding its electronic capability to the response.

The Brahmos has to overcome the Electronic warfare systems and decoy systems, these include ESM and "Electronic Attack" chaff and flare dispenser systems. Next you have the close in missile defence systems. These currently comprise gun and missile systems, Mk 15 Phalanx 20mm gun, US Mk 43 Rolling airframe missile (RAM, 20 missiles) system or it's newer version SEA RAM, (11 missiles), Evolved Sea Sparrow missile system (ESSM), and longer range systems like SM-2 and soon to be SM-3 (though these are primarily anti-air role as opposed to the Anti-ASM role).

A USN CSF also uses active electronic masking, and there may be a "goat" in the CSF that emulates the CVN's signals and electronic signature.

Furthermore....

The USN trains against supersonic cruise missile attacks by using other missile systems. (and has been for many years) eg, the USN uses a missile system that can be tuned to emulate a Yakhont or a Sunburn. In the past we have used modified kh-31's, but these were eventually abandoned due to under performance issues. At the last series of supersonic tests, 49 out of 50 supersonic launches were intercepted successfully.

A carrier is citadeled. It's estimated that it would take 4 torps of the capability of the Mk48 ADCAP to sink one. One or two Brahmos's isn't going to do the job.

The other issue is that the US sees that an attack on a CSF is tantamount to attacking the CONUS - any nation that strikes or attempts to strike a CSF will trigger SSGN's launching cruise missiles (at best) against their shore based important assets - and it's a safe bet is that we would strike a symbolic asset to make a significant point.

So anyway, like I said, I wouldn't advise trying...




posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 03:18 AM
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^^^Yes yes...i must concede..very convincing!
But say once fired can american anti-missile tech (ev sea sparrow,wolf,phalanx,goalkeeper) shoot it down?..that was the question in my previous post...



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 03:45 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
But say once fired can american anti-missile tech (ev sea sparrow,wolf,phalanx,goalkeeper) shoot it down?..that was the question in my previous post...

Yep. ESSM is specifically designed for the threat. Mach 4+, 50km+ range, 50G manouvering. Advanced low altitude guidance system for sea skimming threats, mid course correction via datalink, semi-active homing. Vertical launch capable for quicker response and 360 degree defence without the need for a trainable launcher. It has a TVC tail section that jettisons once the missile is clear of the ships superstructure and makes it's initial turn to intercept.

The Aussies were partners in the development, and all of their Anzac's will use ESSM as the primary defence system. Also the UK and the US have deployed the system, I don't know who else will be getting it. IN should ask for some!


edit to add: btw, Goalkeeper and Sea Wolf aren't American systems, though the US aided in the development. Goalkeeper is a Dutch system and Sea Wolf is British. (must credit where credit is due...
)

[edit on 29-11-2004 by engineer]



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 08:42 AM
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There are missiles able to do evasive maneuvers before hitting the target...
Like the SS-27 ICBM (Topol). How they calculate their trajectory in this cases?


[edit on 30-11-2004 by poirot]



posted on Dec, 1 2004 @ 07:55 PM
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Originally posted by poirot
There are missiles able to do evasive maneuvers before hitting the target...

To be honest, I have reason to doubt the claims that the SS-27 can perform evasive manouvers in the terminal phase.

The SS-27's ability to overcome BMD is based on two things.

First, it's road mobile, which makes it difficult to target by boost phase systems, simply because you don't know where it is. So it can't be pre-targeted for boost-phase destruction.

Second, the single warhead version is heavily shielded against radiation and electromagnetic interference. It also is almost certain to carry decoys and countermeasures. This makes it difficult to disable in mid-course. Previous Russian ICBM's could be disabled in mid-course by detonating a nuclear explosion within 10km of the missile. The SS-27 is thought to be able to withstand a detonation as close as 500m, which is a very difficult interception.

The MIRV version is more succeptable to mid-course attack, becasue it will have to carry less shielding around the warheads. But the fact that there are 6 warheads to target rather than one maked it more difficult to counter in terminal phase.

There are rumors that Russia is working on a system that is a kind of hybrid, combining a cruise missile style terminal phase, but this is certainly not the SS-27. And of course, they have their hypersonic programs as well.

[edit on 1-12-2004 by engineer]



posted on Dec, 2 2004 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by santigwar

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by poirot

just a side note, your trade with US is way smaller than China-US trade



There is no chance of any indo-us conflict .

obviously, you would be erased from the map in a blink



Sure why don't you try??!!....you tried in 1971, but the US chickened out because the Russians weren't very happy about that notion...


1971 is old skoool. try doing something naughty stuff on president bush today and your sorry a$$ nation will be smokin'


[edit on 25-11-2004 by santigwar]


Are the majority of posters here in middle school, or what?



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 07:02 AM
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Operational scenario :





posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 03:02 PM
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Lol,

Assuming we are still talking Brahmos...

The CSF is operating within 300 km of shore based assets.
The CSF defensive screen is only about 100 km.
The CSF's submarine picket is operating within 30 km of the CVN.
The CVN is at the lead of the CSF.
The CSF is operating without AEW&C.
The lone fleet defender is operating within 100 km of the CVN.

There is much more I could say, but I won't bother. Not exactly what one would call a realistic scenario, is it?



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 04:11 PM
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Engineer you are talking like a professional missile engineer which I doubt that you really are. May I ask what are your credentials.

[edit on 4-12-2004 by COWlan]



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 04:19 PM
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You may ask, but you will not get a reply.


Although I welcome any critique of my analysis.



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 12:12 AM
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Ummm I'm not in midle school btw, im an engg student in electronics final year..so there...

And im not being childish...the Indians will stand up to anyone including the americans if there was a clash of interests..thats what happened in 71...US tried to bully India into a early indecisive ceasefire with Pak by bringing the 7th fleet into the bay of Bengal, the soviets then wreaked havoc by bring a few akulas into the bay too...no sources no confirmation to this obviously....its a "Top Gun" kind of classified affair..I know about it from military hearsay...



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 12:14 AM
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Originally posted by engineer
Lol,

Assuming we are still talking Brahmos...

The CSF is operating within 300 km of shore based assets.
The CSF defensive screen is only about 100 km.
The CSF's submarine picket is operating within 30 km of the CVN.
The CVN is at the lead of the CSF.
The CSF is operating without AEW&C.
The lone fleet defender is operating within 100 km of the CVN.

There is much more I could say, but I won't bother. Not exactly what one would call a realistic scenario, is it?



Unfortunately im at a loss when it com,es to abbreviations too
...
Care to elaborate?



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 12:27 AM
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CSF = Carrier Strike Force
CVN = Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier
AEW&C = Airborne Early Warning and Control




seekerof



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 01:03 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
Unfortunately im at a loss when it com,es to abbreviations too
...
Care to elaborate?

D3,
Sorry about that, I just assume people understand the designations. My bad. First of all, I assume you read my post on the previous page.

CSF=USN Carrier Strike Force
CVN=USN Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier
AEW&C=Airborne Early Warning & Control Aircraft (E2C Hawkeye)
AB=USN Arleigh Burke Class Guided Missile Destroyer (AEGIS)
Tico=USN Ticonderoga Class Guided Missile Cruiser (AEGIS)
SSGN=USN Nuclear Powered Guided Misssile Submarine
ASW=Anti-Submarine Warfare
MAD=Magnetic Anonomaly Detector

A CSF operates over a very large hunk of ocean. The AB's and Tico's make a screen around the CVN of several hundred kilometers. The SSGN's are part of this screen, and hunt enemy subs and surface ships. The E2C Hawkeye AEW&C flies patrol and extends the radar coverage of the CSF, and provides early warning of approaching aircraft or missiles. The CVN has 80+ fleet defender and strike aircraft (F-14 and F-18), and they run constant patrols also. There are also ASW aircraft patrolling and dropping sonabouys and scanning with MAD's looking for enemy subs. The entire screen extends almost 1000 km from the CVN in all directions.

All of these assets are electronically linked (NetForced), and the CVN sits in the center, protected from harm. You have a minimum of 2 SSGN's, 2-3 AB's and at least 1 Tico in the CSF, in addition to the aircraft. As I mentioned earlier, there may also be a "goat", a decoy vessel that emulates the CVN's electronic footprint.

No carrier driver would ever get within 300 km from shore based enemy assets. No CSF would operate so "condensed" as the diagram shows (except for photo-ops). They would be spread out over hundreds of kilometers, and the CVN would hold the most protected position in the group.

It's a pretty diagram, but it doesn't represent a true picture of the way the forces are deployed. e.g. All of the forces launching the missiles would have been neutralized long before the CSF was within striking distance of the Brahmos.



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 01:24 AM
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One other thing to add with your force protection. No doubt there will be several SSN's hunting well away from the CBG a a sort of free floating pickett line.

The CBG's were designed with the plan of going up fairly close the USSR and ducking it out in WWIII. With all do respoect tot he CHinese and Indian proponents, they simply cannot as of yet mount a threat like squadrons of supersonic Backfire bombers and Oscar class SSGN's, Afla, and Victor III class SSN's could do at the height of USSR power.



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 01:27 AM
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Originally posted by COWlan
Engineer you are talking like a professional missile engineer which I doubt that you really are. May I ask what are your credentials.


Really now. And you discuss Sino-US politics so can I see your sheepskin? I could care less if he has a High School GED. He presented an analysis of material avalible in open source literature. SO what is your analysis of the data? Or would you rather have a credential duel

This is a classic strawman argument if I ever saw one.



[edit on 12/5/04 by FredT]



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 01:48 AM
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FredT, you're correct about the SSN's but I didn't want to complicate the picture. Technically they are not "part" of the CSF. That's why I left out the space-based assets also, White Cloud, etc...



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 07:06 AM
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hmmm..impressive...how effective would the BRahmos be against PLAN targets...?



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 07:15 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
hmmm..impressive...how effective would the BRahmos be against PLAN targets...?
Not a problem!



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 08:24 AM
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Originally posted by engineer

Originally posted by Daedalus3
hmmm..impressive...how effective would the BRahmos be against PLAN targets...?
Not a problem!


What does "Not a problem" means? Not a problem for PLAN or the Brahmos?





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