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Can You Prove The Existence of The Real World?

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posted on Mar, 10 2014 @ 09:18 PM
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PhotonEffect

ZeroFurrbone
This is one of those " If a tree falls alone in the woods, does it make a noice? "

If you cant hear it, does it exist. If you cant see it, is it there ?

Those questions are never meant to be answered.


They can absolutely be answered ~ these are not riddles....

Think about it,
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to observe it does it make a sound?

The answer is unequivocally NO it does not make a sound. Why?
Because the sound waves that would have been generated by the tree falling do not have an ear drum to process it, which then sends the vibration to our brain which then processes it into a sound that our consciousness converts into a crackling noise.

Without an eardrum, a brain, and some consciousness- that sound wave continues to pass through the air undetected...


Congratulations! Sciense has answers for everything. But it still makes sound vibrations
So it basically it makes a sound than can not be detected. Basically you just sayed something stupid, because if a sound can be heard, then it exists. So if that sound is made somewhere and is not heard, it will still exist. You just sayed it yourself that the tree will make a sound wave. If it didnt made a sound wave, then the noice doesnt exist.

Question is Does the sound wave exist ? If we can hear something is it because of the sound, or only our brain thinking it ? But the fact is that there must be something our brain is sencing to make that sound. So again this means that as long as "that" exists, there will always be sound even if it cant be heard. Can you hear dog whistle ? No. Why ? Because you cant. If you say what is true, then it doesnt exist, but dogs can hear it.... So dogs doesnt exist ? This is simply by your words.




posted on Mar, 10 2014 @ 09:35 PM
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reply to post by ZeroFurrbone
 


Sound is the by product of a wave. Just like color is the by product of a wave.

One wave needs an eardrum, the other wave needs an eye. Both require a brain and consciousness to experience it...

Regardless if its my brain, your brain, a dog brain, or a bird brain... the sound wave is not a sound until the sensory instrument and brain convert into one. Plain and simple. No riddle.
edit on 10-3-2014 by PhotonEffect because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 10 2014 @ 09:38 PM
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ZeroFurrbone

Thats why we make our decisions on the moment. Thats why the Real World in fact is the moment we make a decision.

As long as we believe in something and we think it exists, then its Real.
edit on 10-3-2014 by ZeroFurrbone because: .

On the one hand i like that idea but there is a problem with it and it still does not 'prove' anything. For many centuries and even to this day many have believed in the existence of a god and men have made decisions based on believing in this reality - Does this prove God exists? Belief in any paradigm of existence does not prove its existence. A personal belief system and acting on this belief system does not
establish the reality of this system. To prove an existent real world that could stand an objective test independent of the opinion and/or belief of the observer[s] is not easily done.



posted on Mar, 10 2014 @ 10:00 PM
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PhotonEffect
reply to post by ZeroFurrbone
 


Sound is the by product of a wave. Just like color is the by product of a wave.

One wave needs an eardrum, the other wave needs an eye. Both require a brain and consciousness to experience it...

Regardless if its my brain, your brain, a dog brain, or a bird brain... the sound wave is not a sound until the sensory instrument and brain convert into one. Plain and simple. No riddle.
edit on 10-3-2014 by PhotonEffect because: (no reason given)



But you still admit it exists under the form of a sound wave. Or else if there was no sound wave, we would not pick it up in the first place. So if it exists under a different form, its still means it exists in its own way.


AlienView

ZeroFurrbone

Thats why we make our decisions on the moment. Thats why the Real World in fact is the moment we make a decision.

As long as we believe in something and we think it exists, then its Real.
edit on 10-3-2014 by ZeroFurrbone because: .

On the one hand i like that idea but there is a problem with it and it still does not 'prove' anything. For many centuries and even to this day many have believed in the existence of a god and men have made decisions based on believing in this reality - Does this prove God exists? Belief in any paradigm of existence does not prove its existence. A personal belief system and acting on this belief system does not
establish the reality of this system. To prove an existent real world that could stand an objective test independent of the opinion and/or belief of the observer[s] is not easily done.



God exists for those who believe in him. Every person has his own world. we cant prove any of this, because if the world is created on the moment, we will have to go to the future. But even in the future it will be our own moment, so it basically we can never prove what is real or what is not as long as we exist to prove it. We just have to believe. And as long as we believe it exists for ourselves.

Or at the end we just accept the world for what it is, and stop overthing on the reallity and what is and what is not.
edit on 10-3-2014 by ZeroFurrbone because: (no reason given)


P.S. Can you prove i am real ? Can you prove anyone is real? How do you know that you are the only one "real" here ? If the system is only you, then you can yourself enstablish its reallity.
edit on 10-3-2014 by ZeroFurrbone because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 11 2014 @ 05:25 PM
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ZeroFurrbone

P.S. Can you prove i am real ? Can you prove anyone is real? How do you know that you are the only one "real" here ? If the system is only you, then you can yourself enstablish its reallity.
edit on 10-3-2014 by ZeroFurrbone because: (no reason given)


Actually I'm not sure I'm the only one real here - In fact i'm not even sure what the word real, when it comes to existence, means, and that is one reason I started this thread. In a world base on science and an assumed real world which usually works according to the rules this subject may not be of any great importance. But there are instances and cases throughout history where the rules have changed, such as when Einstein came out with the theory of relativity and later others came up with quantum mechanics - and these theories changed what was assumed to be real to something else. So I do think the question is worth asking - but as I said previously:

To prove an existent real world that could stand an objective test independent of the opinion and/or belief of the observer[s] is not easily done.



posted on Mar, 11 2014 @ 07:43 PM
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This world we live in, everything we perceive through our outwardly oriented senses (sense perceptions), is a Plato's cave. And pretty much everyone is strapped down endlessly trying to label the shadows on the wall and trying to find meaning in the labels.
edit on 11-3-2014 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2014 @ 11:07 PM
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This world does not exist they way we perceive it. Our brains show us what is outside of us but it is not as we think it is. Our reality is made of energy and everything is made of the same energy. nothing is really solid we just perceive it that way.

As far as a world that is not interactive with those sentient Beings who live on it or observe it? I don't know. Our perceptions are so "off" I don't think we can know the answer to that.



posted on Mar, 14 2014 @ 10:42 PM
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PhotonEffect

ZeroFurrbone
This is one of those " If a tree falls alone in the woods, does it make a noice? "

If you cant hear it, does it exist. If you cant see it, is it there ?

Those questions are never meant to be answered.


They can absolutely be answered ~ these are not riddles....

Think about it,
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to observe it does it make a sound?

The answer is unequivocally NO it does not make a sound. Why?
Because the sound waves that would have been generated by the tree falling do not have an ear drum to process it, which then sends the vibration to our brain which then processes it into a sound that our consciousness converts into a crackling noise.

Without an eardrum, a brain, and some consciousness- that sound wave continues to pass through the air undetected...




Sound is a vibration that propagates as a mechanical wave of pressure and displacement, through some medium (such as air or water).


Sound exists whether someone is there to observe it or not.

Your logic is invalid



posted on Mar, 14 2014 @ 11:30 PM
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reply to post by theyknowwhoyouare
 


You have a reasonable assumption to be sure.
But.
What evidence do you have that it does?
Then certain confusing aspects of what we know of Quantum Weirdness comes to mind.


edit on 14-3-2014 by HarbingerOfShadows because: Damn Ewoks got into my trash again!



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 01:08 AM
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reply to post by theyknowwhoyouare
 



theyknowwhoyouare

Sound is a vibration that propagates as a mechanical wave of pressure and displacement, through some medium (such as air or water).


Sound exists whether someone is there to observe it or not.

Your logic is invalid


Sorry friend, it's your logic that is not sound.

Sound is the perception, or experience of vibrations as they move through a medium.

Molecules of air are disturbed or vibrate, compressing them and rarefying them into waves of changing air pressure. In humans and animals, the auditory task is to convert the physical properties of sound-wave energy into electrochemical neural activity that travels to the brain, which we then perceive as sound. The waves themselves make no sounds, nor are they actually sound.

This is very simple logic. To experience the crackling of a tree branch, there must be an eardrum and inner ear to convert those vibrations into a signal that our brain processes and which our consciousness says is a tree.

Existence requires perception.



edit on 15-3-2014 by PhotonEffect because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 01:11 AM
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dupe
edit on 15-3-2014 by PhotonEffect because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 05:00 PM
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PhotonEffect
reply to post by theyknowwhoyouare
 



theyknowwhoyouare

Sound is a vibration that propagates as a mechanical wave of pressure and displacement, through some medium (such as air or water).


Sound exists whether someone is there to observe it or not.

Your logic is invalid


Sorry friend, it's your logic that is not sound.

Sound is the perception, or experience of vibrations as they move through a medium.

Molecules of air are disturbed or vibrate, compressing them and rarefying them into waves of changing air pressure. In humans and animals, the auditory task is to convert the physical properties of sound-wave energy into electrochemical neural activity that travels to the brain, which we then perceive as sound. The waves themselves make no sounds, nor are they actually sound.

This is very simple logic. To experience the crackling of a tree branch, there must be an eardrum and inner ear to convert those vibrations into a signal that our brain processes and which our consciousness says is a tree.

Existence requires perception.



edit on 15-3-2014 by PhotonEffect because: (no reason given)



I just posted the definition of sound. Is your skull really that thick, or are you just too proud to accept that you are obviously wrong? Sound has existed longer than human observation. Your logic is blind AND foolish.

Just as it is foolish to believe that the existence of the universe revolves around humans.


edit on 15-3-2014 by theyknowwhoyouare because: ...



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 05:07 PM
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theyknowwhoyouare
Your logic is invalid

Your logic is an assumption!!



posted on Mar, 15 2014 @ 05:36 PM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


it is not an assumption. It is a statement with scientific experiments to back it. Unlike these philosophical "what ifs".

It is possible that this is all just a crazy simulation or that we are a dream that is in essence dreaming itself, but even so, maybe the dream that dreams us also dreams the sound that isn't observed by the dreamers within the dream.

In reality our observations of the external world aren't all they are cracked up to be. Our perception of all that is around us is deeply flawed

exhibit 1

exhibit 2


If existence was reliant on human observation we would be fcked
edit on 15-3-2014 by theyknowwhoyouare because: ...



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 03:24 AM
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The problem is the word 'existence'. If we qualify it then the problem goes away. The world, as we know it, does not exist without an observer. There is something out there independent of us but our nervous system abstracts from it and these abstractions are the only things we have to go on.



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 03:37 AM
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theyknowwhoyouare
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 

It is possible that this is all just a crazy simulation or that we are a dream that is in essence dreaming itself, but even so, maybe the dream that dreams us also dreams the sound that isn't observed by the dreamers within the dream.

Maybe??
Who knows?
Assumptions are when one assumes one knows for sure.

Can one say that the dream that I was in the 'middle of' prior to my eyes opening (in bed) is still continuing on without me being there?
Or maybe I am in the middle of the only dream there appears to be (the one that is ever present).
I can only know/hear/see what is actually appearing.
edit on 16-3-2014 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 16 2014 @ 06:07 PM
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The bottom line is we can only perceive existence with the limits of the mind and what the mind defines and perceives to be existing. One could then easily draw the conclusion that existence is a relative term and there, and probably is, more than one state of existence. There are insane people with no contact with what we call the real world who may be seeing another, apparently real to them, world. So another conclusion one could reach is that the reality of your existence is defined and controlled - You must believe and accept the bounds of reality that is controlled and defined. They no longer burn witches at the stake as they did in middle ages but they still try to control the paradigms of reality.



posted on Mar, 18 2014 @ 08:52 PM
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reply to post by theyknowwhoyouare
 


theyknowwhoyouare
I just posted the definition of sound. Is your skull really that thick, or are you just too proud to accept that you are obviously wrong? Sound has existed longer than human observation. Your logic is blind AND foolish.

Why blind and foolish? It's a very valid assessment of how things are. And in fact it represents the one side of this philosophical argument that happens to be correct.

You seem to be hung up on the mechanistic/scientistic definition of sound-- which states that sound is a wave; perturbance; or a vibration that moves through a medium.

But you don't at all seem interested in the other more important definition of what sound really is- which is the experience of those vibrations as they are processed by our eardrum, inner ear and brain. There is no sound of a bell ringing without the perception of it. Or, iow, without the sensory equipment to turn those waves, perturbances, vibrations into a sound that our consciousness recognizes as a bell.

You haven't effectively demonstrated why this is incorrect. But I'm all ears



Just as it is foolish to believe that the existence of the universe revolves around humans.


Who said anything about the universe requiring humans? I was talking about it requiring perception.
edit on 18-3-2014 by PhotonEffect because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 19 2014 @ 01:16 AM
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The 'medium' that sound appears in is perception.
The perceived is never made of anything other than perception.

Is a wave in the ocean made of anything other than the ocean?
edit on 19-3-2014 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2014 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by PhotonEffect
 


I'm just curious how you jumped from this:


This is very simple logic. To experience the crackling of a tree branch, there must be an eardrum and inner ear to convert those vibrations into a signal that our brain processes and which our consciousness says is a tree.


To this:



Existence requires perception.


Your logic shows only that experience requires perception, which is fairly obvious.

Do you care to explain how you're reached this conclusion?







 
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