The Problem of Evil.

oktopus
reply to post by windword

 

We have a standard of morality to tap into.

Our morality is completely dictated by our evolutionary position in time and space.

About God wiping people of the earth, or killing people.

Jesus Christ, how many times hasn't this been told already?

Do you think he would just go destroying people who've done nothing wrong?

Oh well, why didn't you say so?!! As long as we're just killing those who have done wrong or are otherwise unworthy of life.

Let's say evil became the mass consciousness.

No. There is no such thing as empirical evil.

reply to post by windword


I see..

reply to post by Bleeeeep

Logically, good and pleasure must be the prime motive of consciousness, but if this is true, from whence did good come?

According to Epicurus, quoted above, as well as to Utilitarian philosophers like Jeremy Bentham, pleasure was the highest good.

These philosophers allowed a hierarchy of pleasures, holding that some pleasures (moral and intellectual ones) were more desirable than others (naughty ones). In this way, moral philosophy effected an entry into their premises, more or less burglarious. I am not an Utilitarian; the point of the example is to show that of your two motives, pleasure and good, one is definite and measurable, the other subjective and indefinable. But here's the question: which is which?

Let me know what you think about that.

Do you know of any creation that is consciously made for a purpose beyond creating a good image for pleasure?

I do.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Thanks for that. Typical preaching video, then.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

When a question of Evil is raised, it is either about a person or by a person, which assume persons have intrinsic worth.

I take it you mean that we're assuming that people's lives have value. Well, yes, I was sort of assuming that. If your life has no value to you or to anybody else, you are greatly to be pitied. But I thought God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten son, et cetera? So our lives must have some value to God, at least. Surely that should give them value to us, too?

Let me ask you this, how do you give intrinsic worth to a product of time+matter+chance?

All it takes is someone willing to give something for it. Market forces come into effect thereafter.

A "universal moral law" is not something that can be compared to laws made by the gov't.

Can you explain in exactly which way they differ?

I'm sorry you don't understand why I'm talking about the British Constitution.

reply to post by ketsuko


You're assuming free will exists. That's a big assumption.

I'm not asking you to prove it and I will not argue with you if you try. But you will need to prove it before you try to use it explain the necessity of evil in a universe overseen by an omnipotent, omnibenevolent creator.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

Hello....Ill bring it down to something that was explained to me a very long time ago...

If there was no evil in the world...and all was just a paradise with animals and man all living in peace side-by-side...we wouldnt know how to appreciate the good.

Or why we even SHOULD appreciate it. It may be a cliche...but without EVIL, we couldnt appreciate GOOD.

I never forgot that...

My own opinion of course --

Evil is a creation by the creator. Being the Creator of evil, the parameters are created by the Creator in the form of knowledge. Without the awareness of the parameters there would be no knowledge of the creation of evil. Evil is therefore a spirit of knowledge and cannot exist without knowledge. Regardless of who does not accept the parameters does not matter as to its laws.

Adam walked and talked in the garden with God and showed that he had knowledge. Eve also showed that she had knowledge to understand disobedience but not the repercussions of disobedience. The tree of the knowledge to do good and evil shows us that there are parameters of knowledge. In this case we are talking about parameters of the knowledge to do evil and in order to know this we must also know the parameters of good. I call this the knowledge of opposites.

The bible talks about people being righteous. For anyone to understand righteousness they have to understand unrighteousness. So there are certain parameters involved in knowledge. Evil is simply the parameters of disobedience of God’s perfect will. Now in the event that you do not believe in a Creator does not mean that through exposure you have not become aware of this knowledge. Whether or not you embrace this spirit is your prerogative but you cannot deny the knowledge of awareness of this spirit of evil. It was exposed in the garden and is now known throughout the world.

Thinking on this, I would love to see a court trial on this very same subject with a really evil defendant. Maybe even become a movie or good book. I believe it would be sensational world wide and perhaps really open up the great minds of our people. This is a great topic OP.

reply to post by Seede

The tree of the knowledge to do good and evil shows us that there are parameters of knowledge.

The word translated here as "knowledge" really means a craft.
So it wasn't talking about knowledge in particular, as if there was some sort of understanding of great truths or something.
It just means the activity of doing something as a practice, because you know how to do it, in this case, to do bad things.

Text The word translated here as "knowledge" really means a craft.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Orthodox rabbi explains –
The correct English translation of the Hebrew word “Tree of Knowledge” is “Tree of Awareness.”

The Torah Anthology – Yalllkut ME’AM LO’EZ 1730 – and translated by Rabbi Caplin =
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The translation of knowledge is “Awareness” --

Youngs Analytical Concordance (1970) = Knowledge is Awareness - Torah = two times in Genesis, two times in Exodus and once in Numbers.

According to you the bible should have said
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the "A Craft" of good and evil.

Wow

reply to post by Seede

According to you the bible should have said
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the "A Craft" of good and evil.

1 Kings 7:14
whose mother was a widow from the tribe of Naphtali and whose father was from Tyre and a skilled craftsman in bronze. Huram was filled with wisdom, with understanding and with knowledge to do all kinds of bronze work. He came to King Solomon and did all the work assigned to him.
(2011 NIV)
Here the word translated "knowledge" is the exact same Hebrew word as is describing the tree in Genesis.
The words "wisdom" and "understanding" are translations of two other different words.

reply to post by jmdewey60


You wrote - "The word translated here as "knowledge" really means a craft. So it wasn't talking about knowledge in particular, as if there was some sort of understanding of great truths or something. It just means the activity of doing something as a practice, because you know how to do it, in this case, to do bad things."



Are you saying Adam and Eve already were good and evil but simply didn't know how to practice this good and evil? Would you write that verse out for me and explain it word for word?

reply to post by Seede

Are you saying Adam and Eve already were good and evil but simply didn't know how to practice this good and evil?

Not exactly.
I think that it is an acquired practical knowledge.
Hypothetically they knew that eating from that tree would bring harm.
Once they followed through with that disobedience, then they would know about doing bad themselves.

In Genesis 3:22, the Lord says that now they know good and evil.
The word used there is the exact same Hebrew word used in
Exodus 36:1
So Bezalel, Oholiab and every skilled person to whom the LORD has given skill and ability to know how to carry out all the work of constructing the sanctuary are to do the work just as the LORD has commanded."
(2011 NIV)

jmdewey60
reply to post by Seede

 

Are you saying Adam and Eve already were good and evil but simply didn't know how to practice this good and evil?

Not exactly.
I think that it is an acquired practical knowledge.
Hypothetically they knew that eating from that tree would bring harm.
Once they followed through with that disobedience, then they would know about doing bad themselves.

In Genesis 3:22, the Lord says that now they know good and evil.
The word used there is the exact same Hebrew word used in
Exodus 36:1
So Bezalel, Oholiab and every skilled person to whom the LORD has given skill and ability to know how to carry out all the work of constructing the sanctuary are to do the work just as the LORD has commanded."
(2011 NIV)

edit on 13-3-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

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reply to post by Seede


Sorry about that last post. The electric went off and on several times and created a mess. Had to re boot several times.

Wanted to thank you for your effort in explaining your belief. While I disagree with some of what you say I do understand how you came to your conclusion. Eve did have acquired knowledge insofar as to understand how to eat, walk and talk such as a child but did not have the awareness or knowledge of evil or the opposites of good. She and Adam were both mentally challenged to say the least but a continuous argument is unnecessary and unprofitable. Thank you.

reply to post by Seede

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There is no biblical support for the idea that sin makes people more intelegent or wise.
All sin does is make people who practice it, skilled in sinning.

jmdewey60
reply to post by Seede

 

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There is no biblical support for the idea that sin makes people more intelegent or wise.
All sin does is make people who practice it, skilled in sinning.

I do agree that sin does not make people more intelligent or wise. I have never contended that sin contributes to intelligence or wisdom and the bible teaches just the opposite. The tree in the garden was not a tree of wisdom but a tree of knowledge. Wisdom comes from knowledge.

You are wrong in the assumption that a sinner is skillful. Sin does not make people skilled in sinning. Hell and our prisons are proof of this.