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Russia sinks own ship to block Ukrainian vessels, official says

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posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 11:54 AM
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MysterX
You work so hard on your posts Xcathdra, i almost feel bad for pointing out to you that Crimeans have not been planting bombs and blowing innocent people to bits on the streets of Moscow for decades, which was the original reason the Russian Army went to war with Chechnya in the first place.


The reason for the attacks was to gain independence so its a valid argument. If the ethnic Russians in Crimea started doing the same to the Ukrainian government in an effort to gain independence, you would say its justified. That is also the exact position Putin is taking towards Crimea. If the population of Ukraine decides to use force to prevent the Crimea from being annexed into Russia, you and Russia will scream about it and then invade to prevent it.

Since Putin was President when he started a second war with Chechnya, he has absolutely no business lecturing the Ukrainians on the virtues of the will of the people and their determination to define their future.

Every single reason Putin used to justify his actions in the Crimea are the same reasons in Chechnya but reversed. If a majority of people want to break away from their government why cant Chechnya (who was a sovereign nation prior to being occupied by the Soviet Union, and then Russia refused to allow the will of the majority of the people in Chechnya when the Soviet Union collapsed. They were fighting the Russians for their independence, something you guys point out and approve with Crimea.

What is the difference between Crimea and Chechnya?

This is another reason why Putin has failed miserably - his insincerity / double standards keep getting in the way, resulting in credibility issues.




posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 12:11 PM
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Donkey_Dean
The only country that has any business their is Russia! We have none!


I'm sorry

Are you under the impression I'm advocating the US/West do something about this militarily or something to that effect? I'm not but as an adult grown human being with a brain I can and will voice my opinion on the matter and wont be silenced. This stinks, anybody who looks at this fiasco objectively can see whats transpiring. Russia keeps Crimea because as you put it only 50% of it's population are Ethnic Russian. So, what of the other 50%?

They don't get a say in the matter?

Have they been heard?

Whats their take on it?

"Crimea is Russia's because Russia said it is! That's the end of it!"

Even the Arrogant Americans gave back or turned over to their own Governing body that act either very independently of or oftentimes against the US, the Philippines, Japan, South Korea, West Germany, Italy, Mexico, Iraq soon Afghanistan
edit on 7-3-2014 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 12:25 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


I don't think Crimean's will have any more say than we do! Do you pick your leaders or just go with the flow like the other 200 hundred million Americans? Russia is bad on gays, but other than that are Russians really any less free than ourselves? Living peacefully is pretty important I think!

I am 100% pro American! I just think we are losing the country to tyranny albeit hidden from public view. Russians I am sure would say the same about the US, but I came to this conclusion on my own and should not be confused with them commie bastards!

Someday we will have a showdown with Russia, but that day should not be anytime soon! My kids are draft age!
edit on 7-3-2014 by Donkey_Dean because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 12:28 PM
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Donkey_Dean
I don't think Crimean's will have any more say than we do! Do you pick your leaders or just go with the flow like the other 200 hundred million Americans?


310+ Million Americans.



Russia is bad on gays, but other than that are Russians really any less free than ourselves? Living peacefully is pretty important I think!


Who in their right mind would threaten Russia? Answer me that? It's a circular argument. Nobody.

So, invading their neighbor is living peaceably?
edit on 7-3-2014 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 12:31 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


More than a few Crimean's would say Crimea is more a part of Russia than the Ukraine! I would say the same! Maybe its just because my Dad had pictures of Crimea from when he was with the Navy. He has always said we were that close to Russia! Its Russian plain and simple! No doubt they marched in! What did anyone expect? All I am saying is why all the BS? Crimea is as Russian as Vodka!


edit on 7-3-2014 by Donkey_Dean because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 12:35 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


With all due respect on this.... We're talking at times here like Ukraine was peacefully minding it's own business with nothing on their minds but making ends meet and seeing the kids graduate and leave home.

In fact, we have a coup and/or largely bloodless revolt supported..publicly and very openly, I'll note...from the upper echelons of United States Government leadership and foreign policy officials. December's visits, statements and outright challenges to Putin, directly and by name, were evidence of a history on this thing that goes far beyond the "simple" look the media desperately wants us to have of this.

The media...and some, it seems, would absolutely go nuts with accomplishment if we'd kindly see Putin as Saddam, Russia as Iraq and Crimea as Kuwait. Well....I recall the real thing to watch live as it happened ...this is nothing even remotely like that, and the seeming urgency for how we must see it in similar terms with today's examples is ...well? Warmongering. I don't know any other way to put it.

In war...the dead only know it was better to live. - Why must we be in such a hurry to turn more living people into dead ones?
edit on 7-3-2014 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by Donkey_Dean
 


By that logic, Southern California belongs to Mexico because 49.7 % speak Spanish.

It's as Mexican as tequila?



posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 12:39 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


I would agree that California is rightfully Mexico's! However the US will never give it back! Hell that would be like the Russians giving up Crimea!
edit on 7-3-2014 by Donkey_Dean because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 12:40 PM
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reply to post by Donkey_Dean
 


It was bought legally from Spain.

Again, who sold Crimea to Russia?

That's the second time I ask.



posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 12:44 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Imagine for a moment that our leaders were convinced that Russia was full on engaged in coup to topple the democratically elected government of the Virgin Islands! Should we deploy troops if they succeeded? No? That might violate their sovereignty you say? Sorry but my ears are muted to this point! Its a load of the stinky stuff Slayer!

I would expect a pre emptive from the US! I think we should butt out of business like this on the other side of the world! We most certainly should not mess with a country who holds the literal key to our destruction! We just aint bad enough to take on that bear boss!
edit on 7-3-2014 by Donkey_Dean because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 12:52 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


I found this as an interesting thing to add for context on all this. It hardly clarifies anything..but in this situation, that's actually the point to be made, I think.


The Second World War brought the return of German forces, who completely occupied the republic after the fall of Sevastopol in 1942, and held it until the spring of 1944. In 1945 British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, US President Franklin D. Roosevelt and Russian Secretary-General Joseph Stalin chose the Livadia Palace near Yalta as the venue for what became known as the Yalta Conference.

The "big three" effectively set the stage for the cold war years which followed, but also began the discussions which led to the formation of the United Nations. After the end of the war Crimea lost its status as an Autonomous Republic because of collaboration by significant numbers of Crimean Tatars with the occupying German forces, as a result of the previous mistreatment of Tatars by the Soviet regime. In retribution, in spite of the fact that some 50,000 Tatars had fought on all fronts in the Soviet armed forces, Stalin officially abolished the Crimean Tatars as a nation, and organized the mass deportation of the entire Tatar population - some 220,000 people - to Central Asia, along with 70,000 Crimean Greeks.

It was not until 1956, when USSR Premier Nikita Khruschev denounced the Tatar deportation in his speech attacking Stalin's legacy, that there was any official recognition of the terrible wrong done to the Tatar people and others.

It took until the fall of the Soviet Union in the 1990s, for Tatar families and members of other deported groups to be allowed to return to Crimea in significant numbers. During the Soviet era Crimea prospered as a tourist destination, and new sanatoria were built for the workers of the growing industrial state. Holiday makers from all over the Soviet Union relaxed on its beaches, and it became a favourite for tourists from East Germany. The infrastructure improved and manufacturing developed around the ports at Kerch and Sevastopol, and also in the capital, Simferopol.

The Russian and Ukrainian populations more than doubled during this period: by 1989, there were 1.6 million Russians and 626,000 Ukrainians living in Crimea. A Ukrainian by birth, Nikita Khruschev had returned Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR in 1954. Thirty-seven years later, in 1991, after the dissolution of the USSR, Ukraine declared its independence . Because of the majority of Russian-speakers in Crimea, there was a move to return the region to Russia, but this was not successful and Crimea is today an Autonomous Republic within Ukraine.
Source

I added some emphasis points and broke it up a little from the original *BIG* paragraph it began as. However, that checks about true to what I'm getting as a secondary thing in formal history courses right now. It's anything but clear, it seems...and Crimea has as much a history as being Russian as they do Ottoman or Byzantine or anything else for that matter. Given a VERY heavily divided local population? These are the moments I think self determination ..and not intervention...are the values we ought to be holding dear. Again, given the population mix and politics (See Map) I don't think it's ANY American business to try and sort out hundreds of years of issues for who wants it more, who has more right to it or how it goes from here.



Would we appreciate the Russian Government in our face over a dispute with a Caribbean nation? Say...one of the U.S. Protectorates? If one went against us, they'd have that right...and we'd show absolutely *NO* respect for that, if it happened. Russia showing up in OUR backyard pond to dictate terms to us on OUR immediate neighbors would be as out of place as this is, IMO.
edit on 7-3-2014 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by Donkey_Dean
 


Again and I too tire of this

The Virgin Islands legally Belong to the US. Crimea legally Belongs to the Ukraine not Russia.

Whether as you put it "Crimea is Russia's because Russia said it is! " or not.




posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Mexican–American War
Conquest of California
April 25, 1846 – February 2, 1848
(1 year, 9 months, 1 week and 1 day)

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 12:55 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Substitute the Virgin Islands with any Caribbean state. You get the point!



posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 12:57 PM
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SLAYER69
Crimea legally Belongs to the Ukraine not Russia.


Incorrect.

Crimea belongs to Crimeans.

Just as the Falklands belong to Kelpers.



posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 12:57 PM
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reply to post by Donkey_Dean
 


Believe it or not.. I hadn't seen your example to use with the Caribbean before using it myself. Coincidence of timing for similar points, eh?



posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


History will show two things here.

Crimea is independent, or a part of Russia, and the USA aint big enough for that bear!

Time will tell the tale! No need for debate as Russia is handling this one!
edit on 7-3-2014 by Donkey_Dean because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 01:02 PM
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I also found this interesting to add to the context of discussion here. Crimea is not 100% Ukranian like a U.S. State. It is, actually, very much like a U.S. Protectorate to the Ukranians, it seems.... Interesting quirk in all this for the status and legality, which is something I'd LOVE to hear from a lawyer well versed on International law for.


After Ukrainian independence, political figures from the local Russian community sought to assert sovereignty and strengthen ties with Russia through a series of moves declared unconstitutional by Kiev.

The 1996 Ukrainian constitution stipulated that Crimea would have autonomous republic status but reasserted that Crimean legislation must be in keeping with that of Ukraine.

Crimea has its own parliament and government with powers over agriculture, public infrastructure and tourism.
Source

I used a date specific search to find that so I could pull something years before spinning the status of The Crimea had any purpose or point. It's from 2006 and BBC for origin.

* Note: Google and other things say an original 2006 date. The dateline on the BBC piece is updated with a 2013 date for last modification..so take it for what you will.
edit on 7-3-2014 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 01:02 PM
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Donkey_Dean
Crimea is a part of Russia and the USA aint big enough for that bear!



And again who said anything about taking on Russia over this?

People call Americans Jingoist...





posted on Mar, 7 2014 @ 01:05 PM
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Wrabbit2000

"After Ukrainian independence"


Great catch.



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