Original Sin is a Good Thing

tetra50
reply to post by KnightLight

 

I see lots of concepts about sin, in general, you are proposing here, but isn't this about the original sin?And wasn't that truly the choice of knowledge and going beyond that garden, and God being chosen as the only arbiter of information while remaining in His garden?

I already went there in the posts above. Original Sin as I have proposed is the choice to become physical beings. Beyond the Garden to me is meaning beyond spirit. I think of this because the snake is sometimes thought of as lucifer the fallen one. He fell away from god.. We followed him by eating the apple.. I've thought about it a lot, but I admit I'm basing this off basically nothing.

And the only way to learn is to have free will. The only way to have free will it to take it. It cannot be given. God wanted it to happen. The snake was an angel helping us on our way. Can you see the light? Me thinks they were both playing a game to lead us to evolve into something Great.

Sin originally is being physical, being physical causes more "sin."

I have to say though. That movie Dr Parnassius (Sp?) completely disagrees with me. Though it's confusing which guy they are calling god in that movie. haha.

reply to post by Grimpachi

Much of the Christian world believes that a talking snake convinced Adam and Eve to eat the fruit forbidden by God, who then became so angry that he condemned humankind to be born with what Christians call “original sin.” But then came the “good news”: God’s sinless son, Jesus, who is also God, paid a brief visit to earth to redeem us for that sin committed by Adam and Eve. So God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself, and when we die we will be rewarded or punished for eternity based on whether or not we believe this unbelievable story.

What an utterly decietful way to boast your disdain for the truth.
Spin and rant about things you have no idea are true or false. Not
one mention, of one society, from the Aztecs going back clear thru
time, to what are quite possibly pre diluvian even. That obviously worshiped
one kind of serpent or another. And all because you love your man made knowledge.

Your slip is showing Grim.

reply to post by Grimpachi


The world is corrupt today because of the knowledge of good and evil. Some knowledge is not worth learning.

I dont know how to skin a human being while keeping him/her alive and in agony through the entire process. I have no use or desire for that knowledge. Does that make me ignorant?

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Grimpachi

 

The world is corrupt today because of the knowledge of good and evil. Some knowledge is not worth learning.

I dont know how to skin a human being while keeping him/her alive and in agony through the entire process. I have no use or desire for that knowledge. Does that make me ignorant?

Wow. I'm trying to figure out what your first assertion has to do, exactly, with your second……..

But I don't agree the world is corrupt because of the knowlege of good and evil. That says the human species is just too ignorant to cope with both sets of knowledge and will s omehow always gravitate to using knowledge in the worst ways….Though this does historically seem to be borne out, I have many doubts that this has more to do with other influences, planned and executed, to bring about this impression, as a justification for more control, and what information we have access to.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


Not to mention the knowledge that could incinerate us all one day.
Been really nice living under that threat my whole life. QUACKS!

reply to post by randyvs


I honestly have no idea what you are going on about with the Aztecs. I posted this in the philosophy section to stay away from literal interpretations. I stated clearly I am not religious so if you expected me to adhere to religious interpretations you would be wrong. I have no interest in promoting their interpretations of stories here only to have a conversation on philosophical interpretations.

Grimpachi
reply to post by randyvs

 

I honestly have no idea what you are going on about with the Aztecs. I posted this in the philosophy section to stay away from literal interpretations.

So the bible can be figurative, but other beliefs must be literal? In EVERY one of these INCLUDING the BIBLE that Randys mentioned the SNAKE is the knowledge bringer. They are all the same in a way. Of course some call it the Dragon. Some call it the Rattle Snake. Some might symbolize it with a Caduceus..

It really is all the same though. And I don't think the snake and the angels could ever be separate, because how could you get your wings any other way?

God never prevented you.. He only wanted you out of the nest. time for college.

reply to post by Grimpachi

I have no interest in promoting their interpretations of stories here only to have a conversation on philosophical interpretations.

I see, so you're ok with eating fruit to gain knowledge?

reply to post by KnightLight

So the bible can be figurative,

YES

but other beliefs must be literal?

I don't think I have said or even eluded to that in this thread. If you believe I did please quote it.

reply to post by randyvs

Interesting: I just see it all as more metaphorical than literal. As in, the snake only a symbol, and not the actual provider of the knowledge, just the emissary offering the choice and omitting some of the price.

Just as "eating" as the act that provided the opportunity for either. Certainly quite an important story, though, just in all the varied responses to it here, and on various other threads….
Tetra

reply to post by randyvs


I believe knowledge is a good thing. The opposite would be ignorance, and I think ignorance is not something to long for. Of course some people think ignorance is bliss however, I am not one of those people.

reply to post by tetra50


Adam and Eve were already innocent from the start. What they learned was the ability to struggle between good and evil. What did that accomplish? Now we have a world full of people living in a constant struggle to make their nature the rule of law. When evil over powers, the good suffer. When good over powers, the evil conspire to manipulate the good and make to them suffer.

Good and Evil is Satan's strategy, like Democrats vs Republicans. Create the problem (evil) to introduce the controled solution (good). Why seek the inferior 'Knowledge of Good and Evil' when Adam had already inhereted Divine Righteousness.

Adam and Eve were not kept in the dark. They were told what not to do to maintain incorruption. Without the choice they wouldn't have been free.

ME: " so the Bible can be figurative, but other beliefs must be literal?

Grimpachi


I don't think I have said or even eluded to that in this thread. If you believe I did please quote it.

Right here, are you ok? lol...

"
I honestly have no idea what you are going on about with the Aztecs. I posted this in the philosophy section to stay away from literal interpretations
"

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by tetra50

 

Adam and Eve were already innocent from the start. What they learned was the ability to struggle between good and evil. What did that accomplish? Now we have a world full of people living in a constant struggle to make their nature the rule of law. When evil over powers, the good suffer. When good over powers, the evil conspire to manipulate the good and make to them suffer.

Good and Evil is Satan's strategy, like Democrats vs Republicans. Create the problem (evil) to introduce the controled solution (good). Why seek the inferior 'Knowledge of Good and Evil' when Adam had already inhereted Divine Righteousness.

Adam and Eve were not kept in the dark. They were told what not to do to maintain incorruption. Without the choice they wouldn't have been free.

Ahhh, well we differ right there, as neither choice provided them with freedom, really, did it? So, was it really about freedom at all, but rather the realization that there is no such thing, and more a revealation to them to see they would constantly be offered "choices," which were not really choices as they weren't ever to be free. The "choices," only provided an illusion, and a way to test their character, whether free or not, whether real choices or only masked manipulations.
Tetra

Grimpachi
So God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself, and when we die we will be rewarded or punished for eternity

This is what Christians actually believe:
So God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from ourselves, and when we die we will be rewarded or punished for eternity with what we want.

reply to post by KnightLight


Well I don't think you understood what I said and missed the period. I have no idea why he brought up the Aztecs "period".
(I don't follow his line of thought.)

And

I started this thread in the philosophy section to stay away from the literal interpretations in the religious forums.


I hope that clears things up for you.


BTW these are also Serpent Mythologies but not all of them.

Abzu - Babylonian king of the abyss of fresh water, husband of Tiamat

Adi Budhnya - Indian serpent god, the virtuality of fire

Agni - Indian serpent god, literally the 'furious serpent', the manifested divine fire

Aguna - Solomon Islands serpent mother goddess

Aido-Hwedo - African serpent god of Fon tribe, who assisted Mawu-Lisa (or Nana-Buluku) in creating the world; lives in ocean to balance the world and consumes iron, when it runs out of iron to eat, its writhings will cause the world to tilt

Aker - Egyptian Dragon representing the earth, who bound the coils of Apophis

Am-Mut - Egyptian serpent god, called the eater of souls

Amphisbaena - an African dragon with two heads, one on its tail

Amphitere - a plumed flying serpent, which knows all the secrets of the world except one

Ananda Lahari - a Naga, the eleven-headed wave of bliss upon which the gods are carried into eternity

Ananta - literally, 'endless', Buddhist Naga with 1000 heads, whose coils encircle the world axis; the cosmic ocean, also called Sesha; he spits out venomous fire at the end of each Kalpa (age) to help Shiva in destroying the creation

Ankh-neteru - Egyptian serpent god through whose body the Boat of Afu Ra is pulled by twelve amikhiu gods, entering the tail and exiting the mouth, which results in Afu Ra being transformed into Khepera, now towed into the sky by twelve goddesses

Anyiewo - African rainbow serpent of the Ewe tribe

Apep (Apepi) - Egyptian primordial serpent who lived in the celestial Nile (Milky Way)
Apophis - Greek form of Apep

Apsu - Babylonian serpent god of fresh water abyss

Atum - Egyptian creator of the Eldest gods, who will become a new serpent when the world returns to its original chaos

Azhi Dahaka - Persian great sky serpent, creator of planets

Basilisk - (Greek - king) Phoenician serpent god, whose glance caused death

Baxia - one of the nine sons of the dragon in China, a strong swimmer

Bixi - one of the nine sons of the dragon in China, an excellent pack animal

Bobbi-Bobbi - Australian rainbow serpent

Cecrops - Greek founder of civilization, half-human, half-serpent

Chalchiuhticue - Incan serpent mother goddess

Chiao - Chinese marsh serpent

Chien Lung - Chinese great dragon

Chih - Chinese serpent god of the north

Chiminigagua - Columbian creator serpent god of the Chibcha tribe, lives in lake of serpents

Chiwen - one of the nine sons of the dragon in China, a seer

Cien-Tang - Chinese serpent god in charge of all river serpent spirits, blood red with a 900 feet fiery mane

Cipactli - Mayan serpent god, ruler of crocodiles

Coatlicue - Aztec earth serpent goddess, mother of all living

Cockatrice - Hebrew Basilisk

Colchis - the Greek Dragon who guarded the Golden Fleece

Daemon - Greek spirit guardians of every god and important human, took the form of a serpent

Damballa - Voodoo serpent god, his 7000 coils formed the earth and the heavens

Damkina - Babylonian serpent queen, mother of Marduk, wife of Ea

Danh - African serpent rainbow god of the Fon tribe, circles the world and orders the cosmos, both male and female; it has 3500 coils above the earth and 3500 coils beneath the earth; called Da in action and Mawu-Lisa in thought.

Degei - Fiji supreme serpent god, originally lived alone with the hawk Turukawa, which gave birth to humans who were raised by Degei

Denwen - Egyptian Dragon, a fiery serpent who's fire would have destroyed the gods, but was stopped by the king

Dewi - Welsh giant red serpent spirit

Dhakhan - Australian rainbow serpent

Dionysos - Greek god wine, born in the form of a serpent

Draco - Greek heavenly divine serpent, a pet of Zeus

Dzyu - Tibetan serpent power of creation

Ea - Babylonian serpent king, father of Marduk, husband of Damkina

Fafnir - German serpent, the great worm with magickal powers

Fu-ts'ang Lung - Chinese Underworld serpent, guards earthly treasures

Fuku Riu - Japanese serpent of good fortune

Fuxi - half human half serpent father of mankind

Galeru - Australian rainbow serpent

Gargouille - French serpent that caused floods by vomiting water from its mouth

Giao Long - Vietnamese serpent gods, immortal and became dragons after 1000 years

Goorialla - Australian rainbow serpent

Gorgon - Greek Basilisk (e.g. - Medusa)

Gucumatz - Qiche Mayan serpent god who brought civilization

Haoxian - one of the nine sons of the dragon in China

Hedammu - serpent who was Ishtar's divine servant

Herren-Suge - Basque serpent god with seven heads

Huitzilopotchili - form of Quetzalcoatl

Hunab Ku _ Mayan god of gods, a great sky serpent

Hydra - Greek nine-headed serpent, could regrow its heads

Iara - Brazilian serpent goddess, mother of the waters, also called mboicu (great serpent)

Illuyankas - Hittite serpent god

Indra - Indian serpent god, imported to Turkey, Iraq and Syria by the Hurrians; he defeated the world serpent to release the power of the seven streams

Jawzahr - an Islamic Dragon responsible for eclipses and comets

Jiaotu - one of the nine sons of the dragon in China

Jormungand - Norse divine serpent, son of loki, world serpent

Julungul - Australian rainbow serpent

Ka-Riu - Japanese fire serpent

Kahasusibware - Solomon Islands serpent god

Kakuru - Australian rainbow serpent

Kalseru - Australian rainbow serpent

Koevasi - Melanesian serpent goddess

Kouteign Kooru - African serpent god, literally 'master of the waters'

Kua Shih - Chinese wingless serpent god

Kulkulcan - Mayan serpent god

Kundalini - the human Naga spirit normally asleep at the base of the spine

Kung Kung - Chinese serpent god with nine heads, god of wisdom

Labna - Mayan serpent god

Ladon - Greek guardian serpent of the Tree of Golden Apples in the Hesperides, taken from Sumerian or Akkadian sources sources

Langal - Australian rainbow serpent

Lebe - the serpent lord of the Dogan tribe, first of the living dead

Leviathan - Hebrew primeval sea serpent, symbol of chaos

Lindworms - German serpent spirits inhabiting bodies of water

Lotan - Canaanite seven-headed serpent

Lough Derg Monster - a giant water serpent confined to the bottom of Lough Derg by St. Patrick
Lu - Tibetan Naga

Luagal - Samoan serpent god of the sea

Lung - the basic Chinese dragon

Lung Wang - the four dragon kings of China: Ao Ch'in, Ao Jun, Ao Kuang, Ao Shun

Mae - New Hebrides serpent spirits

Magoraga - Buddhist serpent god

Makara - an Indina Dragon in the form of a crocodile

Marcupo - Philippine serpent god

Marduk - Babylonian serpent god who killed his grandmother Tiamat and established a new order of gods

Mawu-Lisa - another name for Danh

Mboi-Tu'I - Paraguyan divine serpent parrot of the Guarani tribe

Midgard Serpent - Norse serpent upon which the world tree rests, killed by Thor before it could grow so powerful it would rule the gods

Mixcoatl - Aztec serpent god of clouds, brought rain by having sex with goddess Coatlicue

Mo'o - Hawaiian serpent god

Moma - African serpent goddess in central Africa

Muchalinda - a many headed Indian Naga, guardian of the Tree of Enlightenment who wrapped itself seven times around the Buddha to protect him

Muit - Australian rainbow serpent

Mushussu - a Dragon created by Tiamat to oppose Marduk, who tamed it and made it a guardian

Naga (Nagini - fem) - Indian serpent lord, son of Kadru, daughter of Daksha, a title of spiritual power among humans; literally, Sanscrit for 'serpent'; the Naga spirits bring rain and rules the Underworld; their language is called Naga-Krita; the Nagas are manifestations of Agni (fire), the fierce spirit as spirit guardians; divided into four classes: heavenly, divine, earthly or hidden

Naga Bushana - Nagas representing the energy of death

Naga Kanya - a five or nine headed Naga, a counterpart of the god Vishnu

Nagual - Mexican serpent spirit guardian

Neheb-Kau - Egyptian serpent with human arms and legs, a servant of Ra, the great serpent under world and upon which the world rests

Ningizzida - another name for Zu

Nidhogg - Norse serpent at base of world tree, devours bones of fallen humanity

Nu Kua - Chinese serpent goddess formed the first people

Oniont - Amerindian horned serpent, lived under water, healed the sick

Ophion - Greek Titan, literally 'serpent'

Ophis - Gnostic power of the Spirit, lured into manifestation and trapped there, then sent a second time to release the trapped serpent-spirits (serpent in Garden of Eden, who taught man way of redemption)

Ouroboros - Viking great serpent who circles the world

Papophis - another name of Tiamat

Pulao - one of the nine sons of the dragon in China

Python - Greek father serpent of the world, lived at center of earth, slain by Apollo

Qiuniu - one of the nine sons of the dragon in China

Quetzalcoatl - Aztec serpent god, the feathered serpent

Rainbow Serpent - Australian aborigines' mother and creator of all life on earth, from whose body the earth and heavens were created; shamans gain their power by being ritually consumed by the great Serpent and then reborn

Raja Naga - Malaysian serpent king of all sea serpents

Ratu-Mai-Mbula - Fiji serpent god who rules the dead

Ri-Riu - Japanese serpent that sees all

Riiti - Gilbert Islands serpent god who ruled the dead

Ruki - New Guinea serpent god of the sea

Satan - Hebrew distortion of Egyptian Set-hen

Seraph - Hebrew burning serpent of spirit, highest of God's angels

Seraphim - plural of Seraph

Sesas - Javanese Nagas

Sesha (Shesha, Adi Shesha) - Indian king of the Nagas, with 1000 heads

Seth-heh - Egyptian eternal Seth who opposes the Boat of Ra on its journey

Shen-Lung - Chinese spiritual serpent, controls wind and rain

Simbu - Voodoo snake god of darkness

Sirae - three-headed blue serpents that steal your years, from a dream

Smaug - a crafty English dragon, lit: "a penetrating, inquiring and burrowing worm"

Suanmi - one of the nine sons of the dragon in China

Sucellos - Celtic underworld serpent

Susa-No-Wo - Japanese serpent god

Te Tuna - Gilbert Islands serpent god, whose head became the first coconut tree

Teth - a letter of the Hebrew alphabet, lit. 'serpent' = the lust for life which drives the Wheel of Birth and therefore gives rise to death

Tezcatlipoca - form of Quetzalcoatl

Tiamat - Babylonian serpent goddess of salt water abyss; also called Papophis, from whose body were created the sky and the earth

Ti-Ling - Chinese earth serpent, controls rivers

Tien-Lung - Chinese celestial serpent, protects the gods

Tlactoc - Mayan serpent god

Tu-Te-Wehiwehi - Maori serpent god

Typhon - Egyptian serpent lord

Typhon - Greek son of Gaea and Tartarus, father of Cerberus, Hydra, Chimera and Nemean Lion

Ungud - Australian rainbow serpent

Ungur - Australian rainbow serpent

Ulanji - Australian rainbow serpent

Uraeus - Egyptian serpent fire that crawls up the tree of life

Vaskul - Indian Naga god of Mt. Kailasha, home of Shiva

Viracocha - Incan serpent god

Vrita - Indian Dragon who caused a drought by holding water in its body, until slain by Indra, starting the monsoon

Wadjet - Egyptian serpent guardian sent by Osiris to protect Pharoah and control the Nile, also called Buto or Vazit

Wonungur - Australian rainbow serpent

Worombi - Australian rainbow serpent

Wullunqua - Australian rainbow serpent

Wunekan - New Guinea serpent god

Xiuhcoatl - Mayan serpent god of fire

Xiuhtecuhtli - greatest god of the Aztecs, one of whose forms was a fire serpent

Yazi - one of the nine sons of the dragon in China

Ying Lung - Chinese serpent of justice

Youalcoatl - Mayan serpent storm god

Yowie - Australian dragon with six legs that lives in deep caves and comes out as dusk

Yurlunggur - Australian rainbow serpent, also the Didjeridu used to call the serpent

Zaltys - Baltic serpent god, lover of the Sun Goddess Saule

Zu - Sumerian serpent-god of the watery abyss from which life arises and to which it returns; also called Ningizzida

Snake symbology in religions is not universal.

Grimpachi
reply to post by randyvs

 

I believe knowledge is a good thing. The opposite would be ignorance, and I think ignorance is not something to long for. Of course some people think ignorance is bliss however, I am not one of those people.

The point, further, though, is it isn't that simple, really. We assume what we have is knowledge, but truth is something else, again, as we might consider something knowledge when it's really untrue, and just a subterfuge. This is what hijacks the idea of "choice." If your knowledge of facts is incomplete or misinformed, then any "choice," is obviously not fully informed, and then not really a choice, but as I said in post earlier, a masked manipulated.

And it isn't that ignorance is "bliss," but that knowledge has its price, and is ambiguous anyway.
Tetra

reply to post by Grimpachi


The only original sin a child has is their parent's. Children are a clean slate from the get go and are molded by the adults in their life. So, no. I don't believe in original sin. We are all products of our environment and experiences. That's what I think.

reply to post by Grimpachi


With your list of serpent worshipping, one has to wonder, even, if the Christian Bible is perhaps a masked "serpent" religion…..
Certainly, there are many instances within the books, themselves, where it is unclear which God is being referred to, as more than one is being referenced. And it's also been said and written and observed, that hell has it's own interpretation of the bible.
Interesting thread, btw.
Tetra

Holographicmeat
reply to post by Grimpachi

 

The only original sin a child has is their parent's. Children are a clean slate from the get go and are molded by the adults in their life. So, no. I don't believe in original sin. We are all products of our environment and experiences. That's what I think.

I thought children were totally exempt from "original," or any other sin, totally innocent, as no child is supposed to inherit the sins of the father (by extension, parents/family.)