The US and Russia are both Acting like Asses

reply to post by midicon


We'll there are about 1 million Russians living in the United States so maybe we should let Russia take over this country.

thesaneone
reply to post by midicon

 

We'll there are about 1 million Russians living in the United States so maybe we should let Russia take over this country.

America doesn't give a monkeys about the Ukraine its all about geo-political strategizing and war mongering. Russia has a real vested interest.

And your comment is just silly...I can't think why you would make it

The most realistic solution is partition.
Since there is a good case that westen Ukraine wants to go with the West and eastern Ukraine wants to go with Russia, let them separate.
That would be in accord with "giving the people what they want".
The current boundaries of the state of Ukraine are not very historic, so there is no reason to treat them as sacrosanct if they clash with sentiment on the ground.
And partition means that neither side loses too much face.
There is no chance that Putin is going to give up Crimea, and we can't afford to allow him to take over the whole territory.
The "fallback position" of the State Dept. ought to be partition.

thesaneone
reply to post by midicon

 

We'll there are about 1 million Russians living in the United States so maybe we should let Russia take over this country.

The russian mafia have Brighton Beach ready for an amphibious landing....

The Crimea peninsula is mainly made up of Russian speaking people. 90%+ voted for the ousted president. They never wanted to be part of Ukraine and still don't want to be.

Look at the FIRST law passed by the new government passed. It was a revocation of their multicultural language law. (Made Ukrainian the official language but allowed regional languages. Basically the same as the US printing official documents in English/Spanish) Now they are working on a bill to ban Russian media.

Not the best source site I think, but I heard about this first from Russian & Russian/Ukrainian relatives-by-marriage.
Ukrain Language Law

I believe, based on the information I have, that if Putin stops as Crimea & the Russian-speaking areas on the eastern border - let it be. The majority of the people in those areas want to be Russian. So, applying democratic theory on a regional basis, shouldn't we be letting the people of Crimea choose to stay with the Ukraine and an overthrown government or go with Russia?

SLAYER69
Haven't we learned anything?

We've already went through this East/West crap for decades, Nuclear proliferation, coming to the brink a couple of times, For what? So we can simply take a couple of decades of break just to start this crap all over again?

For what?

edit on 6-3-2014 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

Yes, but looking at the past, what we can figure out is that the Russians didn't raise a white flag and waved it saying "we cool now, you're stronger".

It is almost unanimously agreed among historians and analysts that the USSR lost the Cold War because the US was able to spend more and faster than them. The US was able to support a massive space program, USSR wasn't. The US was able to project military power and keep up with the logistics and it's operations, the USSR wasn't, etc...

The 90's were a nightmare for Russia, and someone like Putin, who was actually in the front line - if I recall correctly, he served in the communist part of Germany prior to the Berlin wall collapse - his pride took a severe hit. Here is someone who is a nationalistic proud leader, and the memories from recent decades are nothing more than a disgrace for Russia, a true show of weakness, and the US just doing what it pleases around the World, with no serious consequences apart from internal discussions.

Nobody did a thing when he started to grab power inside Russia, and nobody did a thing when he started to input some clear reforms that had traces of USSR in them. Not only that, nobody batted an eyelid when he invaded Georgia. Apart from some new Tom Clancy's movie plots, Georgia was a void in the world stage.

People are now making comparisons between him and Hitler, and I think those are stupid because they are nothing like each-other in terms of character. However, while everyone is going for the clear examples like Poland and the aggressive German posture, I actually recall one episode of that whole mess that most people are not even considering: Austria.

The best past example of what is happening is Austria, not Poland nor France.

Austria, like Ukraine was protected by a treaty - Versailles Treaty at the time - that was supposed to be protected by surrounding allies. Austria had Italy, Ukraine has the US.

Italy withdrew it's support to Austria due to proximity ties between Italy and Nazi Germany at the time, but that is also being accomplished by Putin just by using the fear of all-out war. Just with that, Putin has allowed Ukraine and Crimea to be undefended.

Like Putin see's Crimea like Hitler saw Austria: a legal and legitimate part of their country.

And this is where it gets interesting: Hitler made ten demands to the Austrian leader, which he refused to comply with, mostly because one of those demands was the admission of a Nazi party member as a Defense minister. Hitler then made efforts to make the public decide whether Austria should go back to Germany or not. But before that went ahead, he noticed he might lose the voting, so instead he threatened Austria with bombings. Under that threat, the PM resigned and the only person left in that government was that same Nazi party member, who after the government resignation, was happy to invite German forces inside Austria.

Now, replace Hitler with Putin, and Austria with Crimea, and it's an almost perfect comparison to what is happening.

The question is, will Putin, unlike Hitler, stop at that? Or will he start a new era that will kickstart a WW3?

Personally, I think he answered that with Georgia. He didn't stop there.

SLAYER69
Haven't we learned anything?

We've already went through this East/West crap for decades, Nuclear proliferation, coming to the brink a couple of times, For what? So we can simply take a couple of decades of break just to start this crap all over again?

For what?

Look we all should know we are clearly being set up for world conflict. The timing of this Kiev sniper event cannot be ignored:
Just now we have people on MSM saying Ukraine events are as important as 9/11.
The disinterest in war in both Europe and the West has to be slowly reversed and ramped up, which is happening as Kerry et al, plus the Russians add to it one sentence at a time and MSM spreads various alarm bells. The planners must be so pleased.
In the meantime, the bankers and gas/oil people have fallen silent as the politicians take center stage.
The ME keeps on skirmishing behind the scenes. The perfect storm is not yet ripe.
The pope will go to Jerusalem in April, so the focus will change once again, during which time they will assess the various pulses and quicken others. So this situation in Ukraine has a narrow timing agenda, imo.
The war machine keeps on producing arms and doing its thing, wringing its hand in anticipation.
Tons of Saskatchewan grain is just sitting there, as there are "no trains" to transport their products to market while the ships sit in the ports, waiting and charging thousands of dollars per day as they wait for it. The government is telling the farmers to take out more loans to pay that bill.

AM I cynical? Hell yes.

If I could stop it, I would, but we are all sitting patsies.

reply to post by SLAYER69


This is not going to end happily, lets face it, if Russia dumps bonds in the magnitude of 2 billion dollars, it is game over, crashed economy, gates of hell, get ready, there is no riper time than now for Gog Magog (the ancient hope, the fun gameplay of Skull and Bonesmen ) only one moment in time for the prophesies to come to fruition, from all I can see this is the one and there is only one ending and it does not look good, just my two cents.

America, the new Atlantis will of course prevail, however, at a very high cost, I believe Russia is going fall.

~Lucidity
I totally agree with the many who have said it before: there are many, many people who really miss the Cold War. It gave them purpose and made them friends in a really weird sort of way

Have to ask this too. When haven't they behaved like asses?

ETA:

edit on 3/6/2014 by ~Lucidity because: (no reason given)

And Made Them A Lot Of Money Too

lot of bucks in war gear

reply to post by hounddoghowlie


Oui.

Sure did...

Ukraine is where the NATO alliance will find its demise.

Western European powers have understood that AngloSaxons like US and UK luck out from destruction because of geographical variables and it is Europe that takes the brunt of the evils of world wars.

Germany and France are soon going to chalk their own course and take others like Austria, Dutch, Denmark, Nordics with them.

Eastern Europe will be left as the buffer between Russia and West and all the parties will be happy.

US and UK can attack each other to satisfy their warmongering and debt piling habits.

Thanks for helping "getting rid and exposing faults" of communism, that credit goes to US, no doubt !!

loveguy
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

I haven't been following this topic to learn much about it.

My uninformed opinion on the matter is this;

The Ukraine is a separate entity obligated to her own citizens, not to Russia, nor the US.

You guys (Oputinbama) should learn to play marbles with people willing to play the game.

And if people don't like playing marbles with you anymore, you should get the hint and piss-off.

But ofcourse, it all comes down to an oil pipeline, doesn't it?

That's one jumbo marble to covet.

But that's the problem isn't it? One side is playing one game and the other side is playing another. Can you imagine sitting down at a black and white square grid board where one person is playing checkers and the other is playing chess and watching the chaos that would ensue?

I could tell you who's playing which game, but I doubt you have to be told.

reply to post by victor7


It's about time! That thing needs to be re-negotiated anyway. Europe needs to start using its own military instead of sending our own and Britain's to do its dirty work. We could save a lot of money by not staffing all those military bases in Western Europe, and think of all the money you'd save by not having to build them as you staff them with your own armies.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Glad you posted this.

What I've noticed is that America is reacting to everything. There is no "acting", "leading", taking charge.

Putin is a bad guy. He waited for an oppourtunity and took it.

The Obama doctrine seems to be make a pact with another country and then ignore the other country.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Basically, the deed is done.

This is just posturing.

reply to post by SLAYER69


I personally think if the shoe was on the other foot, the U.S. would be claiming American interests and doing the same as Russia. The Ukraine is on their border, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the majority of the people in the Ukraine speak Russian! Crimea was even once part of the Russian empire! Nobody questions when the U.S. justifies invading or occupying another country on the basis of American interests. I see nothing different in them claiming their interests in the Ukraine, considering a lot of the people their still support Russia. Not to mention Russia also has military interests in the region.

What sickens me, is both countries feel they can use other countries like pawns in a chess game. Neither one has any business getting involved in another countries internal affairs or public uprisings. Both countries are bullies, and they use their strong armies and nuclear arsenals to position themselves to lay claim to their "so called interests." If the U.S. had a weak army and no nuclear weapons, do you even think we would even be voicing our opinion? If the people in the Ukraine did topple their government, and if other countries minded their own business, I'm sure the Russian supporters would eventually accept their new government or they would leave and apply for citizenship in Russia. Just my 2 cents.

reply to post by WeRpeons


Well then, by this hypothesis, I guess Mexico ought to invade Cali, New Mexico, Arizona and maybe Texas in order to protect all those people who are from Mexico and speak Spanish and really want to be Mexican, and they are perfectly in the right to do so because those people never wanted to be American in the first place.

They have that movement you know - The Reconquista.

Darkblade71

Maybe we will turn our spying eye away from ourselves and back to where it should belong.
On enemies and those who would do us harm.

Who are you kidding? The government has already tasted from that nectar. There is no going back.

Well then, by this hypothesis, I guess Mexico ought to invade Cali, New Mexico, Arizona and maybe Texas in order to protect all those people who are from Mexico and speak Spanish and really want to be Mexican, and they are perfectly in the right to do so because those people never wanted to be American in the first place.

They have that movement you know - The Reconquista.

reply to post by ketsuko


I Never said the invasion was justified. I was merely pointing out American hypocrisy when it comes to "declared interests."

ketsuko
reply to post by victor7

 

It's about time! That thing needs to be re-negotiated anyway. Europe needs to start using its own military instead of sending our own and Britain's to do its dirty work. We could save a lot of money by not staffing all those military bases in Western Europe, and think of all the money you'd save by not having to build them as you staff them with your own armies.

What a peaceful and progressive world would that be!

One without Cold War and Cold Peace !!

reply to post by Krazysh0t


One can hope.

I still have faith in my government.
Although current leadership is lacking.