An Important Question for ALL atheists...

swanne
And religious people are not people nor should they stand up for their freedom too?

I didn't say that at all. Religious people should stand up for their freedom, but they don't have the freedom to force the government to act in concert with their religious beliefs.

Up here in Quebec there is widespread complaints, for our minister confused "freedom of speech" with "prejudice against all religious symbols" such as the cross.

And here, religious people are confusing their freedom of religion with "the freedom to discriminate", which, of course is NOT a religious practice at all.

That's what happens when christiano-phobia meets politics.

When religion meets politics, there's going to be trouble. That's why I prefer a strong separation between them... Hmm... I've heard that somewhere before.

I don't think religious extremism should be allowed to spread propaganda. But I think everyday christians should still have their freedom.

I think "everyday Christians" DO have their freedom. Can you give me an example where they don't?

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Okay, so we basically agree. Freedom of speech is okay for everyone, both theist and atheist, but extremism and biasing politics in one side's favour is bad news; end of the line.

A star for you mate.

IF INDEED, YOU DO SUCCEED, in your quest to prove that GOD DOES NOT EXIST, how do you plan to convince, the unconvinced, that YOU REALLY WERE LOOKING IN THE RIGHT PLACE??? Or, have you thought that far ahead? What if you fail to convince them, WHAT THEN... ???

What's to prove? Can you prove there isn't a pink elephant orbiting Sirius? I'll wait...

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

LesMisanthrope
Can you prove there isn't a pink elephant orbiting Sirius?

Can anyone prove there is?

I think it's silly - all this trying to prove that people's BELIEFS are either right or wrong...

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Can anyone prove there is?

I think it's silly - all this trying to prove that people's BELIEFS are either right or wrong...

I agree with you.

Every argument for or against such nonsense only further fuels the idea, when it should be omitted from human thought until something of substance arises.

deadcalm
reply to post by BenReclused

 

As an atheist I see no need to try and convince believers of anything. I'm a live and let live kind of guy. You are free to believe whatever you like....as am I. Just show me the same respect and we're all good.

I think thats the neat thing. Once you can get beyond the typical "I am right, you are wrong, let me show you the error of your ways!" exchange, we can really start to learn how differently each of us perceives this place we are.

Its also quite difficult to empirically prove something does *not* exist, its just too slippery to accomplish. Likewise, being able to reason and explain things ourselves doesnt have anything to do with the existence (or lack) of a God(s).

For many, the concept they have in their mind of the parameters for acknowledging such a thing as "God" will define the outcome of what is perceived to be true. And the tricky part is, if God does indeed exist, it would be in a way that is far beyond our comprehension. Meaning that what we direct our attention towards wouldnt be an accurate portrayal of God in his/her/its totality. In essence, being a false god.

Tricky thing, when we have a universe that can simultaneously support subjective and objective experience in the same time and space.

reply to post by BenReclused


Apparently you presume that I seek to prove something to the world. You're wrong. I'm calmly confident in my Atheism, yet have no desire to push my viewpoint upon others.

Sorry to disappoint you.

BenReclused
IF INDEED, YOU DO SUCCEED, in your quest to prove that GOD DOES NOT EXIST, how do you plan to convince, the unconvinced, ...

1 - Why do you think that all atheists are on a quest to prove that God does not exist?
2 - Why do you think that all atheists are trying to convince others that God doesn't exist?

Sure some are doing that ... but most just simply don't care what people believe or disbelieve.

I think this, "Atheist are out to get us" attitude comes from religious who felt safe in a world where god is embedded into everything.

National Anthems, Government building, Politics, and even public setting. But now this new generation of people see that and asking question, and all of a sudden its attack on religion?

As an Agnostic Atheist, i dont care that there is god in such things, i put up with it, i sing the national anthem(well i used to in school), i don't complain, but people who don't like them should have their say.

But of course when they have this opinion, religious will call it "destroying religion".


Are the religious folks ok with taking god out of such things?

reply to post by BenReclused


As an Atheist (& i speak only for myself) i'm yet to meet a fellow non-believer that would suggest it's ever possible to prove something (including god) doesn't exist & i've come to the conclusion that what lies at the heart of this whole belief/non-belief thing is the threshold we have of what we consider proof. Someone who believes in god accepts as proof of his/her/its existence some things that are totally inadequate for someone such as myself. As soon as you accept that, everything else becomes secondary. There is no book or person that is likely to convince me that something exists that i cannot see or touch & if this (Christian) god is so desperate for us to be spared that fiery pit we hear so much about, then why doesn't he just put a little more effort into convincing us? After all, according to the bible, he/she/it wasn't so shy back in the day, what with burning bushes, worldwide floods, fire & brimstone & parting seas (Jesus's miracles seem somewhat of a bunch of parlor tricks after that) & it's only (relatively) recently he/she/it's gone all "mysterious" on us.

reply to post by bismarket


Perhaps you should review my posts in this thread. You may find them thought-provoking.

reply to post by ketsuko

Hi "ketsuko",

I've been meaning, to get back to the beginning of this thread, and you, but, I seem to have gotten "sidetracked". I sincerely hope that you might understand...

Ah, reversing the old "What proof would you accept of God's existence?" As a believer, I'd have to say the intellectually honest will be compelled to admit that just as with some there would be no proof of God's existence they would accept, there are some that wouldn't accept any proof of His absence.

Actually, I'm more concerned about the "lengths", that they'd be willing to, go to, to "unconvince", the one's that still believed.

But I never try to convert any atheists.

As, I am sure you do respect, ONE SHOULDN'T. Unfortunately, I know of a few atheists, that actually, encourage the ridicule of "religions". That kind of stuff pains me, and that's what caused me to get all, well... "agnosticy".

I only attempt to explain myself, however poor my efforts are and try to get them to understand that when they look at believers they are really only staring in a sort of mirror.

That wasn't your failure. They, just, don't want to understand. The truth is:
1) Atheism IS, ONLY, A CHOICE of ONE'S SELF.

2) A belief CAN ONLY BE, A CHOICE of ONE'S HEART.

3) ONLY, A WANABE TYRANT, COULD WANT TO "CONTROL" those two choices.

Most sincerely, and with much respect,
Milt

reply to post by FlyersFan

1 - Why do you think that all atheists are on a quest to prove that God does not exist?
2 - Why do you think that all atheists are trying to convince others that God doesn't exist?

To both questions: I don't! And, I never have...

Perhaps, YOU SHOULD HAVE READ THE TEXT IN MY OP, instead of, THE AREA BETWEEN THE LINES... , and along the sides. That tends to work, fairly well, for me. You should be bold, and give it a try, when you feel up to it...

Sure some are doing that ... but most just simply don't care what people believe or disbelieve.

How would you know what "most" atheists do, or don't do? Are you the Atheist's Apope, or something? Do you subscribe to "Atheist Revolution"? If not, I sincerely hope that you enjoy the link.

See ya buddy,
Milt

I wanted to post in the other thread but it got closed down, agnostics sit on the fence and at some point they can drop onto either the theist or atheists side, so they get attacked by both sides until they do. As a Christan I think their perspective is the most intellectuality honest. They basically say organized religion, the Bible and various unanswered questions have not proved God exists.
Yet they also see design and structure to the cosmos, earth, and biology; which from their world view leaves the door open to somebody who designed and built it. There is unresolved conflict in perspective, leaving them to ultimately think "I don't know"

Whereas an atheist claims they know 100% for sure God does not exist, and really isn't that the same as me saying I also know 100% for sure he does exist. Really the only way this gets answered is when divine intervention takes place in such a way that people are forced to acknowledge God does exist. Because the Bible does say that when God finally decides to intervene he will make sure everybody knows it's him and not some weird random catastrophic ending event.

Life experience also forges perspective, some years ago I talked to a German officer from WW2 he had adopted an atheistic perspective from what he saw happen during the war. Reasoning God should not allow this, if he was around he would have stopped this madness. Many agnostics and atheists feel the same today. Because of this if I wasn't a Christian I would be an agnostic for sure, I understand their perspective, in fact I deeply empathize with it.

I have no empathy for a dogmatic hardcore atheists, they think they are so much smarter than everybody else, even highly intelligent agnostics, many of these agnostics post on ATS, and I often find their perspectives and opinions very interesting.

I remember a poster who was a hardcore atheist who attacked agnostics just as hard as he attacked theists, I think he viewed them as a greater threat to the discussion, eventually he was banned because he insulted so many posters at ATS.

A conspiracy against theism? (Insert the king of all laughing emoticons here.) Such a notion would be illogical and counterproductive. That is because religion is one of the most powerful tools of control that the higher powers have at their disposal. Even the absence of religion has been turned into a semblance of one, at least where a Loud Zealous Minority aspect is concerned.
Mass distraction, division, ritual... say hello to less time and energy for the slaves to worry about what the rulers are doing. Now why would there be a push to rid such a treasure trove? Especially if you believe in the idea-- as I do-- that the gods of all religions are actually masks for powerful spirits to use as a conduit for nourishing energy from their followers' worship transmissions.

They wouldn't give that up for the world. No sir, religion in all its creative splendor is here to stay.

reply to post by BenReclused


So you're likening atheists to tyrants now? Also, I find it interesting that you have a problem with atheists doing exactly what theists do, only better.

reply to post by BenReclused

IF INDEED, YOU DO SUCCEED, in your quest to prove that GOD DOES NOT EXIST, how do you plan to convince, the unconvinced, that YOU REALLY WERE LOOKING IN THE RIGHT PLACE???

Since you're addressing all atheists, agnostic or gnostic, in your pre-ramble, I can only assume that you believe that all atheists are on a "quest to prove that GOD DOES NOT EXIST". How so? Maybe you're confusing asking for evidence of deities before accepting their existence as a "quest to prove that GOD DOES NOT EXIST".

Or, have you thought that far ahead? What if you fail to convince them, WHAT THEN... ???

Personally, I'm not out to convince anyone of anything with regard to their belief system.

Though, hidden in the shadows, and rarely heard, THERE'S a CONSPIRACY a FOOT, to shut theists up (Nope! I reckon, I'm not a poet... Hell... I KNOW IT...), and I fear, for the theists... fair warning... oh dear...

This is laughable. No offense, but atheists account for something like 3% of the world population. Look at the United States, atheists are a minority in government, business, and other positions of power... there are even states that still have laws on the books prohibiting atheists from holding public office. Seems to be the other way around, no?

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

the other thread but it got closed down

Yes, indeed, it was.

Out of concern, I contacted the Mod. that shut it down, and asked, "Why?". This, was the final response:

it wasn't the OP necessarily, but more that of the responses of others who apparently didn't get it, either.

folks replying as if they had been the target. crying foul ..... and using that as a means or self-perceived justification to call out others.... atheists, theists, etc.

As true as that may be, the ONLY one's that "didn't get it", are the one's that, QUITE TRULY, REFUSED TO "GET IT". Instead, many preferred to "TWIST IT", to suit their own, preconceived, and faulty, notions of my intent.

agnostics sit on the fence

That is, indeed, true. However, and quite often, I feel more like a "target", walking around in a "no man's land". But, that's okay... I have, absolutely, no doubt, about my ability to respond, with "overwhelming" force.

they can drop onto either the theist or atheists side

To a true agnostic, the existence of God will never be known, unless, of course, he does, indeed, exist. Because of that, I feel that many agnostics are, MUCH MORE LIKELY, to become theists.

they get attacked by both sides

As a "target" of choice, I can assure you that, most of the "stones" come from the atheists. It's as if, they had a "belief" to protect, or something... though, many claim that, they don't... and... That seems like a farce, to me.

As a Christan I think their perspective is the most intellectuality honest.

Thank you. And, as an agnostic, and having noted the sincerity of your response, I could never say, ANYTHING, less of you.

They basically say organized religion, the Bible and various unanswered questions have not proved God exists.

That, only happens, when someone attempts to change our minds, and our hearts.

Yet they also see design and structure to the cosmos, earth, and biology; which from their world view leaves the door open to somebody who designed and built it. There is unresolved conflict in perspective, leaving them to ultimately think "I don't know"

You DO, INDEED, know the mind, of A TRUE AGNOSTIC.

God should not allow this, if he was around he would have stopped this madness. Many agnostics and atheists feel the same today.

A true agnostic would never blame a God, who's existence they feel, is "NOT CERTAIN". As I've said before, agnosticism, in a "nutshell", IS:
One shouldn't believe, what one can't confirm.

if I wasn't a Christian I would be an agnostic for sure, I understand their perspective, in fact I deeply empathize with it.

Even, as an agnostic, I've always felt a great deal of respect, for those who truly believe, regardless, of what that belief, may be.

dogmatic hardcore atheists, they think they are so much smarter than everybody else, even highly intelligent agnostics,

Yep! I call that CDD (Character Deficiency Disorder).

a hardcore atheist who attacked agnostics just as hard as he attacked theists, I think he viewed them as a greater threat to the discussion,

From personal experience, I can, INDEED, confirm that observation.

It's not often that I encounter such an honest, heartfelt, and sincere response. For that, I truly do thank you, VERY MUCH! May I add you to, this "Old Troll's", "Friends List"?

With the utmost of sincerity,
Milt

reply to post by BenReclused


This is ridiculous and an effrontery to those who are not dogmatically inclined to make their beliefs public.

People who are not 'deists' do not group themselves into categories, nor do they spend time trying to PROVE there is no deity.

At most they will point out, if asked, the problems with ORGANIZED RELIGION.

Let's call a spade a spade. Are YOU, the OP, being a belligerent dogmatic to post this claptrap?

reply to post by BenReclused

To a true agnostic, the existence of God will never be known, unless, of course, he does, indeed, exist.

This is the only thing I'm been arguing with in your threads. It would certainly help if theism were more consistent with its particulars, but what we do have is easily tested.