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NEWS: Ukraine on the brink of Civil War

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posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 09:57 PM
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Welcome to democracy Ukrainian style. Having now seen two days of protests that have reportedly brought Kiev to a standstill, and with the claim by opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko that he has won Sunday's Presidential election run-off vote, tens of thousands of protesters have marched on the parliament buildings. The protesters have set up a tent city and are demanding the reversal of official results.
 





Guardian Full Article

After two days of protests that brought Kiev to a standstill, Ukraine opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko declared yesterday that he had won Sunday's presidential run-off vote, and symbolically took the presidential oath before fewer than half of the national assembly's MPs.

Hours later, tens of thousands of protesters marched on the parliament buildings.

"We are going to go to the presidential administration in a peaceful way, without breaking anything," said Yulia Tymoshenko, who heads a faction in parliament backing Mr Yushchenko.

"Either they will give up their power, or we will take it."

The opposition created a tent city on the central street and demanded the reversal of the official results, which give the pro-Russian prime minister, Viktor Yanukovich, a 3% lead.



Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


"Either they will give up their power, or we will take it."

It is not clear how the officials will respond to this, nor how the Russians are dealing with this crisis.

Could the Ukraine now be on the verge of civil war?

This could be seen as a very alarming situation. As a former part of the USSR the Ukraine once had nuclear armed missiles. And may still have some nuclear weapons.

And you think we (U.S.A.) had problems with our own elections.

Keep an eye on this one.

Related News:

Ukraine threatens US-Russia rift

Ukraine Opposition Converges on President's Office

Update 11/25/2004

Top stories related to this topic recently posted on major news media sites early today.

Ukraine Opposition May Block Highways

Poll chaos: Ukraine set for strike

Ukraine Election Crisis Worsens

Yushchenko Supporters Begin Strike in Ukraine as Yanukovych Pledges Talks

Strike call fuels Ukraine tension

US rejects Ukraine poll

It does not look like this story is going away anytime soon, nor does it look like the people of the Ukraine are going to back down, in fact their numbers seem to be growing.

Putin is more than "frustrated" with this continuing situation. I have to wonder if the Russian leader is thinking of getting Russian military forces involved to restore order.

If that happens this issue will in an instant become THE top international news story.

Update 11/26/2004

New links from top news media sites:

Ukraine Opposition Supporters Block Buildings as EU Leaders Travel to Kiev

Ukraine's chorus of protest grows

Crowds blockade Kiev government

Ukraine vote on hold after ruling

EU leaders travel to Kiev, Supporters block access to government buildings. One can only hope that the leaders of the Ukraine do not use force to move or remove these protesters.. I am afraid if that happens it will be the spark that ignites civil war in the Ukraine.

Scroll through thread for more updates, or click HERE to go to the last post in this thread.



[edit on 27-11-2004 by UM_Gazz]




posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 10:07 PM
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I love how she says:


"We are going to go to the presidential administration in a peaceful way, without breaking anything," said Yulia Tymoshenko

But then later on she says...


"Either they will give up their power, or we will take it."


Take it without breaking anything? I want to see that one happen. What if the doors are locked? What if the president is holding a glass of milk when they 'take the power'? It's going to be devastating.



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 10:10 PM
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I haven't heard of any violence yet, but it is completely possible that a civil war could occur. I've heard that there were several "irregular" occurences, eg. high turnouts in oppostion strongholds, low turnouts in government strongholds etc. There is no evidence that the result is not proper....yet, so maybe Ukrainians are just beginning to find out that democracy is not as great as Western propaganda told them.



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 10:26 PM
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Great post Um Gazz.

A couple of things from the article you posted:


The opposition created a tent city on the central street and demanded the reversal of the official results, which give the pro-Russian prime minister, Viktor Yanukovich, a 3% lead.

An exit poll funded by western embassies put Mr Yushchenko 11% ahead.


Statistically is there any way you can have a 14% error from exit polling and actual votes?


The tension generated by the election worsened when Washington accused the government of fixing the vote and Russia backed Mr Yanukovich.


I was listening to one of the international observers earlier and he was completely convinced of fraud. I don't think I have ever heard a diplomat speak so matter of fact about a subject.

One thing is for sure the Ukraine must declare the election invalid and allow a revote - the people are not going to let this go.

B.



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 10:38 PM
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Although civil war is possible, its premature to predict this. There are a number of precedents for a peaceful transition, such as Portugal in the 70s and Georgia more recently. Let's hope for the best outcome. I think the key is massive, but peaceful, civil protest. If the police authorities are not too much under the thumb of the current government and can act independently, they may well step aside and not prop up the current regime.



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 10:47 PM
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That's how you take your country back, this is always what I've said to myself.

I'm not saying the election wasn't proper and am not getting into the politics of this particular case, but I'm saying as an example this is how it should be done.

The people know/believe it's BS and are going to unite and not stop until something is done about it, by force if necessary.

All I see from protesters in western countries is a bunch of people who have got too much to say for themselves turning up, saying "take your rights back" but when the government obviously laughs in their faces and intends to do nothing do they fight? Hell no! They go home, thinking they've done something just because they've shouted at Bush or whoever. People like that are part of the problem not the solution. "Aren't we great, we shouted at Bush that we didn't like him, we've done our bit for our rights" I'm sure Bush e.t.c. are going to cry themselves to sleep, they're going to change their ways immediately.


Look at these people, they're sticking together and they're going to take ACTION! As an example where was the action from everyone when they believed it was rigged when Bush got his first term? As usual, they turned up, made alot of noise (oh I'm sure that upset him) then went home. Once it comes to the point where they actually have to fight, that they realise that they can't just walk away after their 'fun day out', most people just bury their heads in the sand. It seems most people will do almost anything to avoid confrontation, to not rock the boat, and if you think just shouting at Bush then going home is going to do anything then things do not look good.

It's hopeful, regardless of the inner-workings of this case, to see people who are not going to go away, who are not going to give up without at fight.



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 11:14 PM
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So similar to the US. The "loser" won the exit polls. Reports of cheating and voter intimidation by the "winner".
Why is the US so intellectually incurious when it comes to our democracy?

Have we become complacent and lazy? Scared to enforce the freedoms our country was founded on?



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 11:39 PM
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Originally posted by Volkgeister
....yet, so maybe Ukrainians are just beginning to find out that democracy is not as great as Western propaganda told them.


And communism is better huh?...... the anti-American propaganda is still at work...

i predict that some communist ---edit bad word--- is going to come up in the near future and say he has the solution to all the problems in the Ukraine and elsewhere....and then "Mother Russia" will be back to the old days....communism is coming out of the closet again i fear....


Perhaps not, perhaps things will work out over there....but how can a people that have been indoctrinated into letting their government rule everything in their lives easily learn how to live under a democratic government?....

[edit on 23-11-2004 by Muaddib]



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 11:44 PM
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Originally posted by curme
So similar to the US. The "loser" won the exit polls. Reports of cheating and voter intimidation by the "winner".
Why is the US so intellectually incurious when it comes to our democracy?

Have we become complacent and lazy? Scared to enforce the freedoms our country was founded on?


No...even Kerry conceded to Bush... willingly, probably after his army of lawyers told him that he lost big time....

You know that the exit polls could have easily been fraudulent....



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 11:47 PM
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Just my penny and a half worth: the US elections WERE very close.
There WERE irregularities on BOTH sides as there usually are because radicals on both sides (not always with the candidates knowledge) are willing to do anything it takes to win.

I'm from Southern California and I belong to a labor union- Carpenters local 944. I tend to be a bit outspoken about my political views, and I can tell you that the majority of the people I've come into contact with are republicans, and these are unionized workers in CA!

This country is closer than certain demagogues would like to believe, and if either side tried to take the government by force the other side could produce an equal show of force and whip the would-be revolutionaries up one side and down the other.
I hate tension and i'm slow to start a fight, but let there be a riot or an uprising in my area- on EITHER side of a legitimately close election, and I will probably be compelled to go out and start shooting the rioters.



posted on Nov, 24 2004 @ 07:02 AM
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the election - with paper trail, transparent ballot-boxes and ballots manually counted by representatives of EACH candidate at each polling station, immediately after votes were casted.
So any candidate claiming there was fraud must provide one of these facts
- the name of the precincts that his representative refused to sign
- the sums of precincts for a particular district that don't match the sums provided by the electoral commission

Yushchenko provided NONE of these.

the results
www.cvk.gov.ua...=501

Place your bets
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Nov, 24 2004 @ 08:14 AM
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so maybe Ukrainians are just beginning to find out that democracy is not as great as Western propaganda told them


This is not the case at all. Nothing resembling democracy took place during these elections and here is an account previously posted on ATSNN from inside the Ukraine. Read the first reply by 'Cascadian1' who has posted a letter from a friend in the Ukraine giving a first hand look at the horrors taking place over there and have, up until now, been completely overshadowed in the western media by the US election. The power struggle between the soviet-styled dictators (Russian backed and currently in power) and the democratically inclined populous (with EU and western support) is set to explode.

read first reply:
www.atsnn.com...

-raven



posted on Nov, 24 2004 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by Volkgeister
....yet, so maybe Ukrainians are just beginning to find out that democracy is not as great as Western propaganda told them.


And communism is better huh?...... the anti-American propaganda is still at work...

i predict that some communist ---edit bad word--- is going to come up in the near future and say he has the solution to all the problems in the Ukraine and elsewhere....and then "Mother Russia" will be back to the old days....communism is coming out of the closet again i fear....


Perhaps not, perhaps things will work out over there....but how can a people that have been indoctrinated into letting their government rule everything in their lives easily learn how to live under a democratic government?....

[edit on 23-11-2004 by Muaddib]


I was not making a snide "anti-american" remark, and i was not for one instance stating that communism is better (by the way commuism is not the polar opposite of democracy).

i was simply stating that Western democracy (western not implicitly meaning america) made democracy into the solution that it simply is not, and cannot be. The Ukraine is not a unified country
East speaks russian, west speaks Ukrainian, and this makes democracy very difficult. There is a lot of resentment in that country. Many Eastern Ukrainians have a deep affection for Russia, and feel that historical ties are been severed. Western Ukrainians fear (and are almost certainly right) that Russia still harbours imperialistic plans for the Ukraine.

[edit on 24-11-2004 by Volkgeister]

[edit on 24-11-2004 by Volkgeister]



posted on Nov, 24 2004 @ 09:52 AM
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Originally posted by raven2012


so maybe Ukrainians are just beginning to find out that democracy is not as great as Western propaganda told them


This is not the case at all. Nothing resembling democracy took place during these elections and here is an account previously posted on ATSNN from inside the Ukraine. Read the first reply by 'Cascadian1' who has posted a letter from a friend in the Ukraine giving a first hand look at the horrors taking place over there and have, up until now, been completely overshadowed in the western media by the US election. The power struggle between the soviet-styled dictators (Russian backed and currently in power) and the democratically inclined populous (with EU and western support) is set to explode.

read first reply:
www.atsnn.com...

-raven


Please forgive me for that particular statement
what i was trying to say is that democracy is not the perfect solution for this problem.

Perhaps you should look a little deeper that simply seeing the current situation as, autocracy vs. democracy.



posted on Nov, 24 2004 @ 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by Volkgeister

I was not making a snide "anti-american" remark, and i was not for one instance stating that communism is better (by the way commuism is not the polar opposite of democracy).
............


Well, first of I said communism because that was the form of government they used to have, and some seem to want back.

Second, autocracy is the opposite of democracy....and in autocracy one person or a small group of people have all the power without participation or consent of the people. Communism fits well as an autocracy among other things.



posted on Nov, 24 2004 @ 11:27 AM
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Please explain...



Perhaps you should look a little deeper that simply seeing the current situation as, autocracy vs. democracy.


As far as im concerned Ukraine is a pivotal player in the Eurasian region and its future is being decided right now. Whatever happens in the Ukraine now will surely affect the future of the entire region, especially Russian foreign policy.

-raven

[edit on 24-11-2004 by raven2012]



posted on Nov, 24 2004 @ 12:17 PM
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OFFICIAL RESULT :
Viktor Yanukovych (left): 49.46%
Viktor Yushchenko: 46.61%



From: BBC: Ukraine declares election winner

Ukraine's election commission has declared Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych the official winner of the disputed presidential election.

Supporters of opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko, who say the vote was rigged, have surrounded the commission building for a third day of protests.



posted on Nov, 24 2004 @ 05:49 PM
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ABCNEWS.com

KIEV, Ukraine Nov 24, 2004 Opposition leaders called Wednesday for a nationwide strike to shut down factories, schools and transportation after officials declared Ukraine's pro-Kremlin prime minister the winner of a presidential runoff election that many countries denounced as rigged.

The call by reformist candidate Viktor Yushchenko and his allies for an "all-Ukrainian political strike" risked provoking a crackdown by outgoing President Leonid Kuchma's government, which has said the opposition's actions in the aftermath of Sunday's bitterly disputed runoff were, in effect, preparations for a coup d'etat.

A strike could also further divide the country: Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych drew his support from the pro-Russian, heavily industrialized eastern half of the country, while Yushchenko's strength was in the west, a traditional center of Ukrainian nationalism.

To prevent the crisis from widening, Yanukovych said negotiations with Yushchenko's team would begin Thursday, the Interfax news agency reported, citing Ukrainian television. The opposition has said, however, that it would talk only about a handover of power to Yushchenko.



Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


Just adding this to the thread, it is the latest news available.

It is very interesting having seen the U.S. elections, and now watching how democracy works.. or does not work in the Ukraine.

I am amazed by the show of unity among the people of this former Russian state.

Lets hope they can keep this peacful.

Gazz



posted on Nov, 24 2004 @ 06:38 PM
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Heres a pleasant thought, a country full of old Soviet weaponry is on the verge of civil war. As they say in C&C Generals; "AK-47s for everyone!". Remember where Chernobyl was, in Ukraine. It's possible that old Russian nuclear power plants could be used as a weapon of terror. My guess is that some where in this civil war the threat of nuclear terror will come to light and then US and Russian "peacekeeping" forces will rush in. Then the two powers will attempt to force their respective styles of goverment down the Ukrainians throats. I'm guessing that if this happens either the US will take control and turn it into Europe's Irap. Or Russia will take control and it will be about the same as the cold war. Either way civil war for Ukraine could be an international disaster.



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 05:38 AM
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Top stories related to this topic recently posted on major news media sites early today.

Ukraine Opposition May Block Highways

Poll chaos: Ukraine set for strike

Ukraine Election Crisis Worsens

Yushchenko Supporters Begin Strike in Ukraine as Yanukovych Pledges Talks

Strike call fuels Ukraine tension

US rejects Ukraine poll

It does not look like this story is going away anytime soon, nor does it look like the people of the Ukraine are going to back down, in fact their numbers seem to be growing.

Putin is more than "frustrated" with this continuing situation. I have to wonder if the Russian leader is thinking of getting Russian military forces involved to restore order.

If that happens this issue will in an instant become THE top international news story.




[edit on 25-11-2004 by UM_Gazz]



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