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What is wrong with Libertarianism?

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posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by plopunisher
It's useless to vote for a third party. There will always only be two major parties and neither of the two now are gonna go away unless something major (ie they all die in a plane crash) happens. We need to focus on reforming the message of the parties that do exist and stop neo-con shift of ideolgies


You're right, it's just too bad no one told the 18.87% who voted for Ross Perot.

We can never change anything (and we shouldn't) because you seem to have figured out that the government will continue to run as a self-sufficient entity.

It THAT the way this country should be? If so, then just bury your head in the sand like the majority in America and keep on trudging until this country grinds to a halt.

Just don't look around and wonder why it did.




posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 05:11 PM
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Devilwasp, if cuba has done OK with communism, why are so many of them poor and trying to escape?



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by DanD9
Devilwasp, if cuba has done OK with communism, why are so many of them poor and trying to escape?

it has a good health care system.
one of the best they may be poor but they still live.
they will escape to make thier lives better. like people emigrateing everywhere.



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
it has a good health care system.
one of the best they may be poor but they still live.
they will escape to make thier lives better. like people emigrateing everywhere.



The health care is one of the best, but that still doesn't negate the fact that people can't "live" ....

Prostitution there is so common place they have hookers walking the beaches asking the tourists if they want to get freaky... They can't make money unless their working in the black martket... Something is wrong with that system if that's the only way you can make decent money...



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by TrueLies


Prostitution there is so common place they have hookers walking the beaches asking the tourists if they want to get freaky... They can't make money unless their working in the black martket... Something is wrong with that system if that's the only way you can make decent money...

there are diffrent levels of decent. the health care is a def plus but everything needs a boost.
but hey we are getting into exstreme left here.



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 08:38 PM
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I agree with truelies . if that's the only way to make money in a commie society, that's pretty crappy.



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 09:07 PM
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I would like to point out that since Cuba has been Communist, the US has had a trade embargo against them.

In my opinion, the embargo is in place to punish Cuba for going Communist, and will probably be lifted after Castro kicks the bucket.

Either way, this embargo has injured Cuba immensely.

On the point of Libertarianism, however, I must say that as a major left-winger, I totally dig the idea of Libertarianism. Personally, I am more of an anarchist that sees a real need for an organized government.

Whether that viewpoint agrees with yours, however, is to be seen.



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 09:21 PM
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20,000 liberty seeking people have picked New Hampshire as the best bet for freedom. They will move here to take advantage of the NH advantage.

Do you think if this experiment works it will help put Libertarians in the National arena?


Click for link
www.freestateproject.org...">Liberty

Edit for link

[edit on 11/29/2004 by Mahree]

[edit on 11/29/2004 by Mahree]



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 12:11 AM
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Originally posted by TrueLies

You got one thing right... mutter mutter mutter, thats all your doing...
You have no idea about what your talking about.. Making generalizations and pulling # out of your ass like it's a common fact... keep going, i'm enjoying your uneducated commentary... why don't you get a job with bill o'reilly...


Actually... Bill O'reilly would probably be ripping on her more than you.


But, alas, she is banned now... Does anyine know what she did to get banned? Just curious is all...



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 12:16 AM
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Originally posted by StakeTeriyake


On the point of Libertarianism, however, I must say that as a major left-winger, I totally dig the idea of Libertarianism.


This is what makes me laugh... If you call yourself a left winger... yet you dig libertarianism... Can't you see thats an oxymoron? Libertarians are for less government control... a right wing agenda for years... Less taxation... another right wing agenda... Smaller government.... a right wing agenda... etc. etc. etc....



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 06:52 AM
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Originally posted by DanD9
If you remember, Libertarians are for personal freedoms, and this would be taking those freedoms away. Remember, we are against slavery as it violates people's freedom.


Actually, what I remember is that you claim to be against it. However, you seem to forget abou tsomething we stil have intodays society "loan sharks". In your society how would you stop people from being forced into dept slavery? It would be easy to intimidate someone into claiming that they enterd into it willingly. And once their in, how do you stop someone from trapping people in it, unfairly?

And how do you stop child labor for that matter?
And dont' tell me PR, it's a nice comcept but if it all pappens behind closed doors who would ever know about it?
Or worse yet what if the persons doing it are the media company owners?


[edit on 30-11-2004 by I_AM_that_I_AM]



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 07:28 AM
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Originally posted by radardog
Really. Any business that kills its customers will not stay in business very long, unless said business has a customer base willing to die by taking their products. Cigarettes are a prime example; most smokers know that cigarettes have been linked to cancer, yet they still smoke. Why? Why do they risk their lives? I'm not sure, personally, but at least they have the freedom to do so. Screwing your fellow man typically does not give you rave reviews, and bad PR isn't always the best to have. However, if you have a person willing to be screwed (warning labels are on cigarette packages), then who are you to play nanny?


Why would they bother with labeling their products?
Who would make them?
And what would they do to enforce the labeling policy?
PR is nice, but those with money make better PR than the consumers dieing of the products.


Originally posted by radardogI'm not sure I follow. Some people eat while depressed, but eating is not outlawed.


Eating won't immediatly lead to your death. Suicide will.


Originally posted by radardog Location, location, location. For example, if you are an out of work coal miner living in New York City, I am not very impressed. In realistic terms, if you are an out of work assembly line worker and all the factories near your city have closed, then I again do not have much sympathy. Many employers (without government involvement) have homeless work programs. Wendy's, for example, has an excellent program for those who do not have a home. Granted, people will not start with a high wage, but any wage is better than none.


And how do you move with out money?
WHy would they bother employing you when they could just coeirce you into agreeing that you owed them for even employing your homeless A__
And then putting you into endless Debt slavery.


Originally posted by radardog With that said, some homless do not have a choice to be in their situation. They may be mentally ill, retarded, or some other such problems. It is here that we must be thankful for the compassion of men (non-government charity programs) that have and will take care of those who can not work.


If this tatement weren't so fulll of ignorance it would be laughable...



Originally posted by I_AM_that_I_AM However, I find the idea that private charities could somehow replace to be laughable. No offense, intended.


Originally posted by radardog Will you explain why? Or is that just an opinion?



Could you explain why amoral buisness leaders would somehow gain a soul?

Yes, people have morals, but many if bitg buisness have shownthat they care more aobu the bottom line than the little guy(remember the Enron "scandle"-it's hardly new stuff, they just got caught doing it on a bigger scale is all.)



Originally posted by radardog You should stop looking at the headlines, and look around you. Many huge businesses willingly donate billions of dollars to charities. See: Microsoft, Lowe's, Home Depot, etc. (the list could go on and on). While there are some very famous wrongs around, there are some not so well known rights.


Yes, many do donate mere billions to charities. Unfortunately health care plans cost TRILLIONS. Perhaps it is you who should look around you....


Originally posted by radardog

Originally posted by I_AM_that_I_AM But allowing to them to do so would cause more people to do so than already do. This would cause more people to get into accidents that they wouldn't have if they were sober.


This is simple speculation. Perhaps I am incorrect, but I don't think you really know that your assertion if true.


Right, because I'm sure that if we had an explosion of the number of people who started to use drugs that all of them would avoid driving. After all no one drives while drunk or high now, so why would they in the future?


Originally posted by radardog You worry about things out of your control. In all honesty, it could be the bad decision of one person to go into your home and murder those members of your family. You can not know the future, and you can not control other's thoughts. In the end, you can only seek to reduce risk in an uncertain world. Now we can decide how to reduce risk, and I assert the most just way to reduce risk is to do everything in your freedom that will not take away from another's freedom.


Yes, I worry about what I can't control, especially if I can prevent it from happening! And I wouldn'tl worry aobut a home invader as in a L society I/mywife/mykids could just blow out his brains.



Originally posted by radardog Those who are the most intelligent, with the better grades, and could be someone great are those who deserve scholarships. The entire point of scholarships is for universities to invest in students to give them a nice list of alma mater students. As such, they, in the end, are the individuals who decide who is worthy of their investment.


Ah, I see, so average hardworking people don't matter anyway and should just be forgotten as they don't deserve an education anyway,right?


Originally posted by radardog Implicitly, you seem to want to tell people who they should consider a good investment, and while some suggestions are liked, being told what to do is another matter. People sell themselves in the work world, and like it or not, students must sell themselves to the universities.


No, what I want is for people to be able to get into some universities as long as they meet certainbasic educational requirements, unlike with private universities, where you would have to meet whatever criteria they wanted.



Originally posted by radardog

Originally posted by I_AM_that_I_AM As no one new about the Holocaust until the war was actually winding down I can't see why they would bother to stop something they didn't know was going on.


Are you suggesting that we should go to war against any and all countries just in case something horrid is occuring in that country? I do not understand your point here.


No, it was implied, by the person I was responding to, that we would have gone into WW2 to stop the Holocaust(IN an L society) from happening, even though we wouldn't have known it was happening if we hadn't gone in! I was pointing out why that logic didn't work.
Please pay attention to other posters if your going to respond to posts in this thread, Not everyone is always talking to you.(no offense)


Originally posted by I_AM_that_I_AM

Originally posted by radardog Now niether of those things bother me too much as it would be what people chose to do. What bothers me is that either nazi's or communists would have dome out in control fo eurasia and then come over to the US and we would have had to fight on our own soil. The casualty rate would have been a lot higher. Alot more pople would have gotten hurt than did by us joining the fight earleir, something we couldn't do under a L gov't.


You know, people make a living by writings what-if history stories. While they are interesting books, they are still placed in the fiction section. Not to be rude, but all of this is speculation.


Not to be rude, but it is a fact not speculation.


Originally posted by radardog

Originally posted by I_AM_that_I_AMPlease stop comparing Irag to WW2. Theyare not the same at all. One good thing I can see about an L gov't is that we wouldn't be in their in the first place.


I never compared Iraq to WW2, I am simply showing a horrible moral delimma. Being forced to support an action you are morally opposed to can not be a good feeling.


God, pay attention!
I was NOT talking to you. I was replying to a commment by DAND9, NOT YOU!



Originally posted by radardog

Originally posted by I_AM_that_I_AM
Please tell me you don't believe in debt slvery.

If you do I will have lost all respect for you.


I actually part from many libertarians in that I think it can be argued relatively well that absolute freedom includes the ability to give up your freedom. Slavery only violates another's rights if and only if that person has rights (i.e. has not given up their rights).


AGAIN!
I WASN"T TALKING TO YOU! NOW, I dont' mind you replying to things I say to other posters but please don't act like I was making the comment about you when it was clear that I wasn't.


EDIT: fixing quotes.

[edit on 1-12-2004 by Kano]



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 07:35 AM
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Originally posted by I_AM_that_I_AM

Originally posted by DanD9
If you remember, Libertarians are for personal freedoms, and this would be taking those freedoms away. Remember, we are against slavery as it violates people's freedom.


Actually, what I remember is that you claim to be against it. However, you seem to forget abou tsomething we stil have intodays society "loan sharks". In your society how would you stop people from being forced into dept slavery? It would be easy to intimidate someone into claiming that they enterd into it willingly. And once their in, how do you stop someone from trapping people in it, unfairly?

And how do you stop child labor for that matter?
And dont' tell me PR, it's a nice comcept but if it all pappens behind closed doors who would ever know about it?
Or worse yet what if the persons doing it are the media company owners?


[edit on 30-11-2004 by I_AM_that_I_AM]

I don't think you understand, libertarians are against slavery! We don' think you should be able to sell your wife and children into slavery, becuase it would not be their choice! I do not see why you think we think it's fine to sell your family to slavery.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 07:38 AM
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Originally posted by radardogMany government policies with international trade are that way to solve other problems that were ironically caused by government. One thing many American businesses have trouble with is product price; most countries can produce items at much less cost than America can. Why is this? America is not inherently weak with regard to the cost of producing, but it does have many standards that cause the price of goods to increase. Minimum wage,
Right because we dont' need to pay people wages that they could actually live off of, after all peple only have jobs for the fun of it, it's not like anyone actually needs the money.


Originally posted by radardog strict pollution controls,

And of course no one needs a air to breath or anything silly like that.


Originally posted by radardog employer sponsered healthcare,

And of course this is just a stupid Idea, after all in a L gov't we'd have no need for health care, as it would all be privided by wealthy philanthropist...


Originally posted by radardog etc. are many of the policies that cause American goods to not be able to compete internationally.

Yeah if only those rich guys could earn their money with no regard to those greedy little guys our economy would be the best in the world. If only they'd just trust the rich to take care of all their needs we'd be sitting pretty....

[/sarcasm]



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 08:00 AM
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Originally posted by Mahree
20,000 liberty seeking people have picked New Hampshire as the best bet for freedom. They will move here to take advantage of the NH advantage.

Do you think if this experiment works it will help put Libertarians in the National arena?


Click for link
www.freestateproject.org...">Liberty



That's funny I was on that site the other day looking at a possible relocation.... I know my husband is up for it...

They got a much better run state government then the federal government, paying 200 bucks a year to the govenor and what not... Keeps em honest...
I can't believe how well put together their state consitution is...
Excellent! I'd live throught the harsh winters for a little taste of that...



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by TrueLies

Originally posted by Mahree
20,000 liberty seeking people have picked New Hampshire as the best bet for freedom. They will move here to take advantage of the NH advantage.

Do you think if this experiment works it will help put Libertarians in the National arena?


Click for link
www.freestateproject.org...">Liberty



That's funny I was on that site the other day looking at a possible relocation.... I know my husband is up for it...

They got a much better run state government then the federal government, paying 200 bucks a year to the govenor and what not... Keeps em honest...
I can't believe how well put together their state consitution is...
Excellent! I'd live throught the harsh winters for a little taste of that...


I am a native of New Hampshire. This liberty project has interested me very much. I think that it will be good for NH. These people who will come to NH all sound like hard working people interested in working with the existing structure and making it better.

We did lose Governor Benson in the last election on 11/2 who also supported this free state project. I hope this won't slow down the success of this project.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 08:19 AM
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If I were an adult, I might move there. But, I'm 14, and I like Arizona better (I hate cold!)

I_AM_that_I_AM , health care would not cost trillions if it didn't exist, now would it? It would be a lot cheaper if it was payed for by donations and not spent on those who run healthcare. Also, why do you hate the rich so much? I'm not rich and I don't hate them.
Why would you have to be enslaved for your huband/wife/dad/mom? It would be illegal.
You seem to think that the government is supposed to make the people's decisions, and not the other way around like it was. You can't accept the fact that people can make their own decisions, work for who they want, start their own business, go where they want, use drugs and poison themselves, as long as they do not harm other people.
It also seems that you think that people should be payed for not working. What did they do to earn that money? You don't deserve money for existing, you have to earn it by working.

Sorry if I was a bit rude, just that I can't say what I meant otherwise.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by Mahree
I am a native of New Hampshire. This liberty project has interested me very much. I think that it will be good for NH. These people who will come to NH all sound like hard working people interested in working with the existing structure and making it better.

We did lose Governor Benson in the last election on 11/2 who also supported this free state project. I hope this won't slow down the success of this project.



Hard working is right....... My husband is self employed and I will be too......And I got the perfect idea for New Hampshire people for these long cold winter days... New Hampshire has got to be the best state in the country when it comes to politics.... I'm sorry to hear about Benson, hope the current govenor supports the free state project...

It seems like a great thing to be able to live with other fellow libertarian's, is it not pretty much a libertarian state??

That's a good way to call all the other lp's over... We'd have our own state colonized! Mormon's are trying with utah......

On any note, The fsp is brilliant imo... way to think NH!



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 09:41 AM
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Originally posted by TrueLies


Originally posted by Mahree


Hard working is right....... My husband is self employed and I will be too......And I got the perfect idea for New Hampshire people for these long cold winter days...


I live in the southern part of NH so the winters are not as bad as up in the Great North Woods. However, I think you would find the NH people know how to have fun in the winter too. Many activities for recreation. Lots of mountains and lakes in NH. Also the NH has a coast line on the Atlantic. Pretty wonderful in the summer too. I might as well go all the way and praise the wonders of a colorful brilliant fall cover of leaves, and the spring, nothing can beat the first day of spring in NH! Everyone joins in, smiles are every where. Whoops sorry, got carried away.


New Hampshire has got to be the best state in the country when it comes to politics....


We have "first in the Nation status". Politics is taken very seriously here. This is still the state for the first in the nation primary. The state is small enough so that the politicians can meet and talk with most residents. This kind of campaigning sometimes brings out the true colors of the candidate.


I'm sorry to hear about Benson, hope the current Governor supports the free state project...


I haven't heard his views yet.


It seems like a great thing to be able to live with other fellow libertarian's, is it not pretty much a libertarian state??

That's a good way to call all the other lp's over... We'd have our own state colonized! Mormon's are trying with utah......

On any note, The fsp is brilliant imo... way to think NH!


IMO New Hampshire works for libertarianism because so many of the values of the citizens of this state coincide with the libertarian viewpoint. If there were a chance of this party making a difference I think that it would be supported.

So back on topic..."what is wrong with Libertarianism?" I think that many people are pulled toward the notion of this kind of liberty, but do not know the details of how it could actually work.

People are afraid of voting for a third party candidate for fear of "losing" their vote. I find this idea self fulfilling.

My question was that if the NH Free Project worked and people could have an living example wouldn't help the Libertarian Party nationally?



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by Mahree
My question was that if the NH Free Project worked and people could have an living example wouldn't help the Libertarian Party nationally?


Indubidably... Someone has to set a precedent.... While some may not like the libertarian idea, the ones that do will want to start planting the seeds elsewhere in the country... That could only be a good thing... Maybe one day the states will get back to having more power and influence over the federal government too...

Again... Go NH! See ya in a couple of years!



[Edited on 30-11-2004 by TrueLies]




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