The worship of maleness

I have come to understand why the world is so hostile to independent males in this modern day.

Strong, mentally complete males are unable to be governed by any kind of authority, and can only be related to by equals. What male principals are worshipped by those who read this forum?

For that matter, what is an ideal male? What is he like? What is you ascribe to a male worthy of worship?

I have a suspicion that many of you will not be able to answer. I have seen how this world treats men who would be free from it. There is a new kind of blasphemy rising, a plot to destroy the male power from this world, and replace it with a filthy counterfeit.

It is folly to think that Jesus is the only Perfect Male. I know that some of you do this so you can justify how the rest of the men are treated by you. You make very great assumptions and are very arrogant and wicked. You make yourself a power in your own right, and then invent your own authority, without any kind of reason.

From what does your authority come? From the bursting of the womb? That is a glory of animals. You should worship beasts and the animals of the wild.

Marriage? What is that? To bring forth human offspring, only to devour them for their light and their affections? I know what you are, you are greedy animals. You devour the young, and call yourselves liberal, you destroy the truth, and call yourself wise, but I have clearly known your path.

Look upon the free men and women! They do not lust for procreation. They are whole in their own kind, they worship and are worshipped by one another. They are loving without the tyranny of the flesh, they are affectionate without the oppression of your god of darkness.

This world is being ruled by an animal, a creation of mischief, and its governors are the corruptors of pure things. Its provinces have become the nations of the world, and its churches are filled with its people. You have made you gospel the doctrines of flesh, and your canon the laws of the carnal mind. You have made a stall for the raising of pigs, there is no more philosophy in your people.

Indeed, love of knowledge has vanished from the American people, my own race, they have made themselves an enemy to purity, goodness, and all true wisdom is hated by them. They desire nothing but to tear apart the world with their own hands, like the crazed women who fell upon Orpheus as he sat with his beloved instrument.

You worship death, America, and I have proven this by reason and observation. Your works proceed you, you have slaughtered and killed, you desire the extermination of all truth and light in this world, and wish to replace it with your counterfeit power. You are the children of the Devil, and your Father is the Father of lies and deceptions.

The last of the free males remains on this world as a testament against you, we who did not befoul ourselves with your mischief, we who would preserve the Purity of Liberty and the Sanctity of the Pure Wisdom! We desire that our world be free, yet you cast it into prison, you are a thievish and unlearned people.

You wonder why the rulers of your nation now close their fist around you, because it is you are their herds, and they have made themselves your gods, and you will be forced to serve and obey them. Their ranks are firm against the freedom of this world, because they fear like all tyrants for their occupation.

What is maleness, America? Why don't you speak about it anymore? has shame covered your eyes and made you afraid to speak of truth matters? Has the blood of innocent people stunk in your noses, and made you afraid to open your mouths against atrocity and injustice?

You claim arrogantly to be a great people, but I have weighed you justly, and find you to be the most wicked of dross. Your men are false brothers, they have no spirit, each one antagonizes and steals from one another. Your entire people is this way, from one sea to the other.

Where are the free males? We are so few and scattered. Only our little brothers love us, and a few old men, we are all that remain of the once great American people. The rest cannot be called men, but will forever be nothing but beasts.

Arkaleus

Maleness to me is something less deep then what you posted...

I worship a good looking bulky body, ripped arms, and a nice tummy amonst other things...

Sure men are this way and that way but it's a damn good thing all men aren't the same...

You take the good with the bad and the bad with the good. Nobody is perfect.

The challenge is to be the best person you can be for your own health and the world's...

What have you done to improve??

There is a movement, based around the trivial such as Iron John and A Circle Of Men, but also around a deeper path of descent instead of obsession with worldliness.

It takes a few to make a difference. But what makes any man "free" is questionable. Recognizing that you are not free is a step towards freedom, is it not?

By your own words then, man!

Your value system seems to be on par with a chimp, or perhaps a bull elk, or any number of animal species who are motivated by the physcial or sexual urges. Is that where you are comfortable?

Are the attributes of the body, or other physical things, the primary conisderations in your brief existence in this world? Are you proud to declare yourselves a breeding animal? Then perhaps you should develop the barking cry of the large-nosed apes of Asia, or maybe the head-butting rituals of the mountain goat, or perhaps the horn-wrestling antics of the great horned beetles of Japan?

I think the question for you is: How are people better than animals?

Ark

Perhaps, at the level of a species, they are not... only more arrogant.

Which is why fleas and cockroaches will outlast humans by millions of years.

I know that you are a Mason.

Masons have a good deal to say on Manliness.

That is what I am looking for. I say that America is selevtively breeding out masculine behavior, and replacing it with the carnal and the animal. I think it is done to debase a people like a currency.

Without a male spirit, a society quickly falls into female-oriented chaos. The forces that generate life become unblanced, and the offspring of that people are born feeble, mischievious, malicious. That's what's happening.

Ark

And I know where you are coming from, but I do not personally associate organized/constructive vs chaotic/destructive behavior or higher thought/aspiration vs base carnality as gender-based pehonemena, at all.

Biology in our species is about a struggle to be male, no matter what any social engineering programs try to undo. I am not familiar enough with the mindset of stupid warmongers to understand their motives other than xenophobia and greed.

Evolution away from this "given" is measured in aeons.

Evil-ution is measured in minutes, as quick as a soundbite to the ears of the gullible, and it appears neither an exclusively male nor female domain of behavior.

And I still like a good five course banquet at Lodge.

You make for good reading, Arkaleus!

I have a lot to write and a lot of questions. I do hope that you, or some other brilliant and kind human being will take the time to respond.

First of all, I know there is a *men's movement* and this movement is all across the globe. I believe there is more than one, right now I can only really recognise that there are two male dominated movements which are working in different directions and for different purposes per say, in other words they are not related or affiliated with each other and possibly they are in opposition. Anyway, I don't dwell daily on this. Mainly because it *is* happening and there is not much, if anything I can do about it. Why? Because it's simple really, I am female and thus invisible to the men involved in these movements and their agenda.

So as if this entire world doesn't have enough problems already, now there is an all male generated movement which completely excludes women (and no, I'm not talking about Freemasonry) And no, I'm not bitter or resentful either. What I am is sad, very. Sad because what I see in the near future, in this world, in our society, for mankind, is something worse than we humans have EVER faced. I see an imbalance coming from and to mankind that is hard to imagine, much less put into words.

The best way I can describe what is happening right before us, is that male energy is working to encompass female energy. The problem with this, is that if and *when* this is fully achieved, there will no longer be balance amongst human beings. There will be no equality, there will be no liberal women, there will be no desire for a man to be with a woman because he will already *think* he possesses the full balance of yin/yang within himself. Right now, these men are working for greed, amongst other things. And this is a disaster in the making. To me, this is Babylon and it is the very seed of man himself that is bringing this great darkness upon all of mankind. Is this inevitable, I wonder? Is this the greatest deception of all time? Why aren't these men actually seeing the abomination that they are creating and the utter chaos that this will lead to?

I have this to say, for anyone who is involved in this or for all those who are not but can see it happening. Remember that whether or not you believe in God, whether or not you believe the written word or if you think it is myth, whether or not you are man or woman, there is a *reason* why the grass is green, there is a reason why there are stars in the sky, and oxygen in the air and there is a reason why there are humans; both man and woman and they are in separate form. All of these things are required for life and for a life with balance. You, no matter what gender you fall into, you are NOT Gods, you can never be Gods, it's been tried before and has lead to ...well, I'm sure we've all read our history books.

People who don't realise this, need to. There is a greater, much more violent war going on in the world than the one that we all read about, and post about and watch on the news. This silent war is a thousand times worse than the bloody war. No matter who you are, you are able to prove you exist because you have skin, but your skin is not what life is about. You die, your skin can no longer be seen, but rest assured you are still alive. So yes, we all need to protect our skins as we do. But the greatest protection we need is for our soul. And right now, there is silent battle going on to steal away your existance.

*For this topic, I'm wishing I was better able to express clearly what I see*

Before I make any sort of comment one way or another, I would appreciate if yall (Well, actually, these are mostly directed towards Arkaleus) would elaborate some more on a few things. (Anyone is welcome to elaborate)

What is your definition of masculinity? The "ideal male"?
Where do you think authority should come from?

So the whole problem, in your opinion, is lusting after material things, and other "carnal" pleasures?

What do you mean by "freedom". How would you describe it (Could I ask for less than one page worth of answer, if you do infact choose to answer me? heh)

Also, I get the feeling (I say feeling, but its probably glaringly obvious to everyone else lol) that by "maleness" you mean something other than what most people would think of as being "male"? A collection of characteristics and traits, rather than just a singular thing?

Oh well, if ya answer me, then thanks; if ya dont, I understand.


EDIT: By the way, these questions arent intended to have any sort of point or present any sort of argument.. I am just asking for my own understanding.

[Edited on 23-11-2004 by shidge.]

What I am asking is for the "model" we are using for male perfection. The same could be asked for Female perfection. Ancient societies had clear, well defined examples of this. Our culture has discarded both male and female archetypes, and replaced them with the most ugly forms imaginable.

In other words, what should our boys emulate? The hardbody, the rich man, the athelete? The greedy business man? Geroge Bush Jr.?

You can't become a jeweler without learning from master jewelers, nor can you train horses without learning from horses and their trainers. How then, do boys become great men, if they have nothing from which to learn this?

It seems rather silly, in such a late stage of an advanced culture, that we have no idea how to raise up boys and girls to perfection. It's not that we can't do it, its that we have no idea how. It's not considered a valuable trait to develop spiritual or mental perfection. Only physical things matter to this society.

I don't know anything about "male movements" and I doubt I would find any friends among such people. I have more in common with the Freemasons than I perhaps let on. I am a gnostic thinker, and a freeman.

Why is there no clear definition of what a male should be? It seems like a great big thing to be missing in our culture. A great big hole you can look right through. How can a man who never holds any ideal inviolate, or makes any assertion for a cause or idea, raise a family, let alone a boy?

Here is what I consider to be the virtues of the perfect Male:

**
He has a firm undertstanding of the world and its systems, and partakes as little from them as he must.

He loves mind more than body, because he knows that the mind creates all things, and the body is the servant of the mind, rather than the other way around.

He develops his own mind, and does not let other spiritual forces enter into his mind. He becomes whole unto himself, and does not acquire the defilements of female spiritual energy or those of brute men.

He is articulate, understands the sciences and respects the intellectual being of mankind. He is loved by the younger males, because their minds are not dominated by him, but expanded and liberated instead.

Because he hasn't been manipulated by his elders to be a servant and a submissive person, he doesn't do this to others. A perfect man is wise in all subjects, and a liberator.

He is honest, able to judge matters small and great, familiar with the writings of sages and prophets, and not given to the pursuit of wealth. He is no filthy merchantman.
**

Today we let females raise our boys, who have no interest in making them strong and independent whatsoever. In fact, the female-dominated primary educational system is SYSTEMATICALLY DESTROYING all male-positive things in schools. Play is curtailed and limited to ridiculous "safety rules." Instead of independent boys, they make "group activities" and stress social development. That is a female trait. Males are not well-raised with these kinds of things. Historically, and traditionally, a healthy male is a SOLITARY THINKER. He comes to society once he formed his own self, and then finds brothers and compatriots.

There is a big difference between female and male. We are different beings. We must be raised differently from one another. I do not trust women to raise little boys. I would never allow women to raise up older boys, especially teenagers. No culture has EVER done this before. It wouldn't have been a debate to them. It is something they knew, just like the day from the night.

Catholicism destroyed the gods and their human lessons, and attempted to replace them with men and churches. When these failed, the people were left to their own ends, wandering in total darkness. Now the least worthy of all forces has come to fill that vaccuum - the economic forces of materialism. These have become the new gods and gospels, and it is destroying humankind and the minds of the people.

You can't raise up a boy to be a man capable of citizenry in a Republic if all he is told is to go to school so he can get a better job, and make more money. Money is the entire ETHOS of America. It has replaced Wisdom, Culture, Learning, God, and Gnosis. Money has become the God of this modern world, and its church is the unhappy expansion of international industrial dependance.

Now all we have for an icon is Jesus Christ, who is perhaps the most difficult genius to understand. America is not founded upon Christ, or God, or anything else. It is a cabal of shameless greed, self-interest, and dark mass-ignorance.

Virtues? Where are they? What are they? They used to be known to every man who walked in Rome, even if he didn't practise them. They were made popular through the stories of the gods. They were personified for the learning of the profane, so that they would not be utterly darkned. In America, we have so such system, we have nothing at all except the television.

I would dare say that the TV is where we are getting our gods from now, the MALE learned to be male from the ridiculous imaginary people he sees on tv. He thinks the drama and the comedy of TV shows are the models for his own behavior. I don't mean violence and foolishness, I mean he takes his social cues from TV. He speaks like them, dresses like them, and seeks what they are selling.

Arkaleus

[Edited on 23-11-2004 by Arkaleus]

Originally posted by Arkaleus
Today we let females raise our boys, who have no interest in making them strong and independent whatsoever. In fact, the female-dominated primary educational system is SYSTEMATICALLY DESTROYING all male-positive things in schools. Play is curtailed and limited to ridiculous "safety rules." Instead of independent boys, they make "group activities" and stress social development. That is a female trait. Males are not well-raised with these kinds of things. Historically, and traditionally, a healthy male is a SOLITARY THINKER. He comes to society once he formed his own self, and then finds brothers and compatriots.

I do not trust women to raise little boys. I would never allow women to raise up older boys, especially teenagers.

There is much to be said about your recent post, with emphasis on the above. I didn't realise until now, that you believe and blame an entire gender for the lack of male ideals or masculinity. I don't know where your bitterness comes from and frankly it isn't my place to ask you to elaborate. Although you don't need me to tell you this, because your words speak LOUD and clear in the above two statements, you are harbouring a hatred like no other my friend.

First thing I will say is that you do not *let* women raise your boys. That is something that a family as a whole does. Together, man and woman are a team in raising their children. If a parent should die, then of course it is up to the surviving parent to raise the child or children (boy or girl) If two parents should separate or divorce, both parents are STILL obligated to provide a hand in raising the child or children, so it is still a team effort. Of course there are couples who divorce and for whatever personal reason may decide that one or the other is the dominant care provider of the child but that is another story or topic all together.

You cannot speak for me. I refuse to allow you to say that because I am a female that I have no interest in raising a strong, independent child, be that child male OR female. Parenting, either a Mom or a Dad or both combined, is what provides a child with the seed to develop into their own mold. I dare not ever blame a parent for poor child rearing strictly because they are male or female. Both are needed AND required for assisting children in how they ultimately decide to become as adults. You plant the seed, the seed then grows on it's own AS you the parent water the seed with the best capabilities you have as a human being.

There are numerous problems associated with poor parenting, the least of these is based soley upon gender. The problems we are enduring from generation to generation are based on morals, values, structure and interest among many many other things. The world we live in is quite dysfunctional as far as family goes. But that is not to say that a woman is incapable of assisting a boy in becoming a man just as a man is very much capable of assisting a girl to become a woman. Who you are and how you are and how you were raised are the main factors you consider when you are raising a child of your own. Anyway, I could seriously go on for days about how wrong you are, but I think I've said enough to get my point across, for now.

Onto your next paragraph..

Originally posted by ArkaleusYou can't raise up a boy to be a man capable of citizenry in a Republic if all he is told is to go to school so he can get a better job, and make more money. Money is the entire ETHOS of America. It has replaced Wisdom, Culture, Learning, God, and Gnosis. Money has become the God of this modern world, and its church is the unhappy expansion of international industrial dependance.

I don't know why you are feeling this way? Really. I know hundreds of parents, both male and female together or separate that never tell their children these things. I was not raised this way, my brother was not raised this way either. And we were both raised by the same mother. And if you truly believe that money has replaced all the things you mention, then wouldn't it be money to blame for our fundamental issues concerning our children and our society?

Originally posted by Arkaleus
I would dare say that the TV is where we are getting our gods from now, the MALE learned to be male from the ridiculous imaginary people he sees on tv. He thinks the drama and the comedy of TV shows are the models for his own behavior. I don't mean violence and foolishness, I mean he takes his social cues from TV. He speaks like them, dresses like them, and seeks what they are selling.

Arkaleus

OK. This issue I agree with. We all know that TV is causing problems with our childrens behaviour. Well then, if we can agree that less or no TV would benefit our children, then here's an idea..REMOVE them from the TV. It isn't a necessity, it isn't something that is required for survival. But we come home from work and plunk ourselves in front of it, then blame it for problems in our lives..go figure. In my opinion, if there are children in the home, you as a parent should never situate yourself in front of the television. For one, you are more than likely ignoring your children and for two, why pass this poor behaviour onto your children. They see Mom or/and Dad doing it, they think it is "OK" to do it too. Same goes for the computer. The more time spent peering into a screen, the less time you are spending raising your children.

So yeah..please spare me with blaming women for turning boys into sissies and instead take some responsibility for your own actions as a human being. Above all, what truly benefits children and people no matter what gender they are or what gender the supplier is, is LOVE.

edited for typos

[Edited on 11/23/04 by magestica]

Arkaleus I have to say, I agree alot with what you say, Being raised by only my mother ,I can say I personally feel a bit different and out of place in our society. And at times I have trouble acting in the way I am expected.

The main trouble about Role Models is without your "mother" and "father" there are no popular figures that show examples of how you should act in a number of situations that come up in life. How can you strive to be perfect if the only examples out there are NFl/soccer/WWF athletes, Billionare's, and actors on tv.

Of course this view you hold that "boys and girls" need different values and examples to fit into "perfect" Gender roles only works, if you don't see the need to expand beyond what your body tells you to do.

I didn't need to be taught by any man I came in contact with to have ideals by which to live my life. It was my ability to question my own perception's of this world and my own values. And the perception of what the world (not as a whole but as in individuals and small groups) saw of me and Their values that taught me those ideals.

As far as I know women have always stayed home to "raise" the children. A woman who Decides to raise her children by herself, can teach a child more about independance and strength than most men. Especially one who depends on his wife to do laundry, cook, balance the house hold budget, go shopping, remember holidays, by gifts for distant family members and hold a part time job. Woman are better when it comes to bringing people together.

OF course you made a good point about women not raising their boys to work past fear, I suppose women are more emotional and tend to trust their emotions more than men do. And that mom that constanstly going to PTA meetings saying "you can't have this book in your library" is definetly more of a step backwards. OF course how many times have men burned books or slaughtered infidels that weren't worthy of the land we took.

To sum up Part of your outlook on male/female parential units is "tradionally" Women have taught us what "Not to do(morals)" and men have taught us what we should do(ambitions)". I can understand your frustrations and resentment right now in this day and age. Alot of those ambitions and morals are going down the drains. being stepped on, picked back up and laughed at.

But my mother taught so many great things that i can only hope i pass on to my own children.

She's Shown me the Compassion, to give to others when they don't have, regardless of how much i feel they "don't " deserve it.

She has shown me True Strength, that to hold "ideals" that no one else agree's with, is MY OWN RIGHT!

She's shown me sublety, that to be loud and direct isn't always the right way of approaching something.

She's shown me that everybody needs, that even the most educated, the richest, The proudest are incomplete.

SHe's taught me to be a better person, that both women and men are flawed animals. We have to think outside the box, to think before we speak or take action. to be ourselves as opposed to what we were Raised to be.

She's taught Me love, that there is something that contradicts most human lessons and achievements, to accept one another for better or worse.

The list goes on and on but I don't need to prove to you or myself what a great Role Model my mother is. but i didn't take this thread as an insult to her either. Like i said you are right about alot of what you wrote. but the problem isn't being a perfect MAN or WOman, its about being a perfect person. As long as we separate men and woman , we will still separate people. and waste valuable knowledge that we can utilize that just because "we are not suppose to".

In all honesty if this post had nothing to do with the thread, i tend to bitch and wine alot(which i learned from my mom :pbjtime and i get a serious reaming for it , i will accept it and understand.

Now change the subject to "worship of humanity" i might be able to lend some interesting thoughts, also the decline of Real men, is really about the decline of Real people. It's harder and harder to find a good woman(in my opnion) or a good man. but this is an age of beginings ,hopefully we can throw away all the crap dumped on us the past 3 thousand years, and start something better (hopefully taking the best from the past with us). All the great people in hiistory are just remembered that way. People have never really been that smart, we are children in need of learning. You seem like highly intelligent and definetly better educated than I am. I would to discuss this with you more, if your willing. thank you for reading my post and am willing to listen to more of what you have to say

Well, I cant claim to not be arrogant I am. Thats the way I am and its not high on my list of things to change.

What wrong with procreation? So you get you 'leg other now'n'again' so?

Are we better than animals? Heres a question, most of the human race is stupid and are as animals, but what is god, if not another animal? We take pets and used to have have slaves. Did god do that are we anything but pets? We were created as his slaves as are angels, and one slave rebelled does that make him evil? It must because Christianity itself is based on staying away from him or suffer dam nation.

You illustrate my point, sister. What reasoning did you give me to respond? You only see someone who does not accept things as they are, and you become angry at me for questioning the social order. Your turned your post upon me, because I DARED to question the motives of women in our culture.

I will take it one step further. I will say that women have strayed entirely out of their place, and have gone into the society as a great distraction and an interference to the nation. They interfere and pollute the fraternal order that maintains our intellectual integrity. Women do not value anything objective or rational. They desire to cover it up, to forget it, to demonize it. They want CONTROL of as much as they can get, and do not care if they destroy their sons in the process.

Bitter? Why do you all use that word? You single me out for this description, but it could be applied to ANY statement that complains against one thing or the other. Why don't you call Jesus BITTER for his railing accusations against the Jews? The language I use is strong, clear, and concise, much like a sword that strikes into you. It is not from bitterness I argue, but from a greater sense of what IS. You seem to speak as though there were no problems, there were no issues needed addressing. You don't seem to understand what being a man is. Maybe that's because you are a woman. I am often puzzled why people from this culture have such a hard time with manliness. It's like it's something they hate, or don't understand. That is an evil omen. They are conditioned to include "women" in everything they think, do, or say. That's an evil disease, and I know where it came from.

I am against those who do not reason in this world, who hold everyone down from seeing things as they are, lest they grow wise and rebel against it. I believe women ALL do this, it is their secret way of power, which I hold as abominable and evil. Your processes of life and birth I do not glorify, as you do. Neither did Jesus. Jesus was no husbandman. Nor am I.

You desire to paint me as angry, or bitter, and this is a tool used to weaken my argument. I am the least bitter and ugly person you will ever meet of my age. But, since that seems to be more important to you than my argument, I will say that you place is not in a rational discussion of manliness, and I would desire that you leave the temple of reason at once. You most certainly don't worship maleness, so why did you come here, except to cast wine in our faces? Depart then, and do not return to us. Begone, ye Thracian hag.

Women, you don't get to command the ship. I have my place, and you have yours, and we do not ever mingle. I don't make babies with you, and I don't marry you. Your kind fear my kind of men, because we lead men away from your charms, and into divinity. They lose their carnal appetites for you, and that is the whole basis of your power. I have sensed this, and been told by the spirit of my mind, that the greatest fear of women is that men become self-sufficient and no longer desire them. It is the worst kind of animal expression you give to me.

Like a huffing she-bear in full heat, swollen loins, panting tongue - this is how the race of women appears to me. Desiring nothing but the pouring of seed, and the insatiable lust for offspring and little children, whom they coddle and drain for what they desire most, which is the life of the creative force, which they are powerless to bring into being by themselves.

That is the great error of the female, and I desire not a single one of you. If you can get past your petty desire to rule over that which you have no place to rule, and to seal your own body, and develop your mind like a man, then I will be your brother. Until then, into the fields and the trees with you.

I have seen rage and bitterness, and it is a female entity. Don't try to push your own illness on me. I know how your minds work, and I know your every deception. You will deny these things, but I am wiser than you. Foolish and silly women, you haven't changed in all this time.

Reason and sense dare not rise up in your heads, lest it make you wise and unable to serve the forces your sisterhood imposes upon you. I pity the wise and good girl whose mind is sent to her by Christ, for her oppressions are as great as mine.

This nation, America, is suffering under the great weight of a womanhood out of control, and a imbecilic, impotent manhood. As if the bearing of children were glory to a man. Go and read the old books, and you will see that the wisest of men avoided women. Your children will rebel against you, because you lie to them and steal from them.

The upper classes of men are suffering from a disease of great ignorance, and they are oppressed by evil and greed. Being ground between these two stones, I am quite raw and upbraided. I can only hide myself as best I can, find what love I can among the wreckage of youth, and sing my praises to whomever will listen.

I wish to worship the perfect man, and develop his traits within myself. Are you peaceable towards this endeavor, woman? Are you willing to allow your sons the same grace as I? I clutch my shield for your inevitable response.

A prophetic warning: When the worship of perfect maleness goes away, the nation dies. We bear the crown, and are the seats of the great intelligences. Without us, you are totally blind and impotent. We are the joy of heaven, the gifted presence, the rejoicing word. You people pray for deliverance, for guidance, for gifts from heaven. When they are born to you, you set about to destroy and ensalve them. You grind them to bits with your insufferable envy, your senseless hatred of God and his sons kills the very gifts you pray so fervently for. Wicked and foolish persons, you are too high and mighty and full of pride. You will be knocked down again and again, and you world rolled back as the scroll. Your blasphemy is not commited in secret, you are not aware of the greatness, yet we are aware of you.

Women, are you equal to this? Then bring forth your strong arguments, and prove to us that you have a right to stand in the temple of God. If you cannot make the words, then bring us some sign, that we might know you are true. Stand for something righteous, daughter, or get out of my sight.

I withdraw to my place.

Arkaleus.

P.S. Shorty - What on earth have you been reading? Lucifer is not the correct role model for you. He didn't rebel against evil, He desired to do something contrary to the Order of the Greatness. He desired to glorify that which should not be glorified. Freedom is not found in His way, but only slavery, because His way cannot ever bring life, but only decay. Our bodies are a form of slavery Shorty, you are beginning to understand this. You haven't quite reached the light of wisdom yet. Our minds are not connected to our bodies, kiddo. When you can separate your mind from your body, then you can join God. Then you can be free. There is no other way, because of the fierce bondage of matter upon spirit.

Life is found only with God. And God is not a Tyrant. He is not a man. He is the Fountain of Perfect Life and Truth. We do not serve God while a higher way exists. There is no higher way than God. God is not a bearded man on a throne. That one is someone else, but He won't admit it very easily.

Arky

Originally posted by Arkaleus
For that matter, what is an ideal male?

An ideal male is one who is honourable, respectful and self assured enough to never feel the need to palm off his insecurites and complexes through assumptions about others.. to do so would be cowardly and would give him the luxury of hiding from who he truly is. He is a man that takes responsibility for his own self image and actions.

Actually I expect this from everybody.


[Edited on 25-11-2004 by riley]

Originally posted by Arkaleus
You illustrate my point, sister. What reasoning did you give me to respond? You only see someone who does not accept things as they are, and you become angry at me for questioning the social order. Your turned your post upon me, because I DARED to question the motives of women in our culture.

*Arkaleus- I gave you no reasoning to respond to me. I was simply expressing my own personal opinion about how I see and know life as a woman and through being raised soley by a woman. I am not angry at you, in fact I am always impressed by your writing style AND the things that you write about. Of course you are free to question the motives of *women* as I am equally free to respond to your questioning, because I am a *person* and this is as we know, a forum.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
I will take it one step further. I will say that women have strayed entirely out of their place, and have gone into the society as a great distraction and an interference to the nation. They interfere and pollute the fraternal order that maintains our intellectual integrity. Women do not value anything objective or rational. They desire to cover it up, to forget it, to demonize it. They want CONTROL of as much as they can get, and do not care if they destroy their sons in the process.

*Take as many steps as you like, I am not attempting to stop you. I will disagree with you though, and say that not ALL women, because of the fact that *they are women* have "strayed" out of their place. Perhaps it is true what you say, that women do not value anything objective or rational, but I think that many people living in this world today could fit that bill no matter what gender or race they are.

*Of course I cannot speak for every woman in this world, nor do I wish to. I can speak for myself the women I have known in my life and know today. And you are right, some women are exactly as you have described in the above paragraph, but not all of them. That is my point. It is unfortunate and almost disgusting to see a woman friend raising a child and treating that child that they are made of glass, especially young boys. But that's not the worst of it, the worst thing to witness in front of your eyes is a woman treating a young boy this way and her husband following this same behaviour?! Now I would never try to tell someone how they should be treating or raising their child, it isn't my place unless they actually come to me and ask. But I can say this; I certainly would never treat my son this way. And I was old enough when my brother was born to see that my mother did not treat him this way either.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
Bitter? Why do you all use that word? You single me out for this description, but it could be applied to ANY statement that complains against one thing or the other. Why don't you call Jesus BITTER for his railing accusations against the Jews? The language I use is strong, clear, and concise, much like a sword that strikes into you. It is not from bitterness I argue, but from a greater sense of what IS. You seem to speak as though there were no problems, there were no issues needed addressing. You don't seem to understand what being a man is. Maybe that's because you are a woman. I am often puzzled why people from this culture have such a hard time with manliness. It's like it's something they hate, or don't understand. That is an evil omen. They are conditioned to include "women" in everything they think, do, or say. That's an evil disease, and I know where it came from.

* I didn't single you out. I expressed what I see as truth from your own words. You are correct, it really isn't proper for me to openly accuse you of being bitter and it's not as if I can resolve some of your bitterness. I want you to know that you have a right to be bitter or however else you choose to be, but what you don't have is the right to categorise me because I was born female and live in the same world as you as a female. I am not like what you describe and I think it's important for you to know this. The reason it is important is because I don't consider myself unique. There have been many women I've known throughout my life that are not at all as you have described. I think it is unfortunate for you that you've drawn the conclusion you have and that your conclusion is covered with such hostility over an entire gender. I do not favour discrimination of any person strictly because they are of some group and I don't like the idea of categorising a person into a certain group. To me personally, it is in poor choice to have a bag of apples and throw them all away just because some of them are rotten.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
I am against those who do not reason in this world, who hold everyone down from seeing things as they are, lest they grow wise and rebel against it. I believe women ALL do this, it is their secret way of power, which I hold as abominable and evil. Your processes of life and birth I do not glorify, as you do. Neither did Jesus. Jesus was no husbandman. Nor am I.

*I know several people whom I feel do not reason, or if they do, they do not do it well(IMO). And they are not all women.

*I do not glorify my process of life and birth any more or less than I glorify yours. Life in itself is what I glorify. I glorify the fact that I am able to breathe not breed. I don't think or ever feel that because I am a woman that I possess some secret power. I do consider myself lucky, for many reasons and I will never take my life for granted. I'm happy to have had the chance to live, be that through a womans body or a mans, but my mind and spirit is always what I value the most.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
You desire to paint me as angry, or bitter, and this is a tool used to weaken my argument. I am the least bitter and ugly person you will ever meet of my age. But, since that seems to be more important to you than my argument, I will say that you place is not in a rational discussion of manliness, and I would desire that you leave the temple of reason at once. You most certainly don't worship maleness, so why did you come here, except to cast wine in our faces? Depart then, and do not return to us. Begone, ye Thracian hag.

* I have no desire to do any such thing, you did that all on your own. The main weakness I see in your "arguement" is that you generalise and discriminate, and to me, that is not only weak, but also wrong. I have absolutely no qualms about who you are, I'm sure you are a fine individual in real life. I see nothing wrong with having the facts that allow me to come here and express to you that you are only wrong in the conclusion you have drawn which you evidentaly think gives you permission to discriminate based on only the women you've come in contact with in your life.

I certainly DO worship maleness. I worship and pray to a MALE God which I always refer to as HE. And I worship and love my husband to the degree that you could not possibly know of unless you actually knew me beyond this computer screen. I have no idea what a "Thracian" hag is, but it does not sound good. I can assure you, I'm not one. It is interesting though. You go on and on about how women are this and that, then you stoop to a level far beneath the things you say by name calling. *shrug*

Originally posted by Arkaleus
Women, you don't get to command the ship. I have my place, and you have yours, and we do not ever mingle. I don't make babies with you, and I don't marry you. Your kind fear my kind of men, because we lead men away from your charms, and into divinity. They lose their carnal appetites for you, and that is the whole basis of your power. I have sensed this, and been told by the spirit of my mind, that the greatest fear of women is that men become self-sufficient and no longer desire them. It is the worst kind of animal expression you give to me.

* I do not wish to command any ship. I'm quite happy being a passenger. The main issue I have with your arguement( other than the gender discrimination) is that the men I have known think as you do, but without the integrity to back up such *thoughts* If you men want to be in charge and in command, then do so! By all means! But then don't whine when you(men) are incapable of fulfilling that role and then come begging to me to take the lead and then whine later that I'm attempting to bestow my power upon you. Men will place a woman in the driving seat, then later bitch about their driving?! If it is power and CONTROL that makes for an ideal man/male, then take it and maintain it. But don't expect that when you are too tired or worn out that I'm supposed to take that control only to have the act of it later thrown in my face that I'm attempting to possess you or empower you. To me this is not rational behaviour for anyone, nor is it logical.

I do not fear you or "your kind" (whatever that is) I fear anyone who places themselves in control of any situation but is unable to complete the task.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
Like a huffing she-bear in full heat, swollen loins, panting tongue - this is how the race of women appears to me. Desiring nothing but the pouring of seed, and the insatiable lust for offspring and little children, whom they coddle and drain for what they desire most, which is the life of the creative force, which they are powerless to bring into being by themselves.

*I know of nothing to say to this ridiculous statement other than I see and have seen MANY men who fit everything you have described above.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
That is the great error of the female, and I desire not a single one of you. If you can get past your petty desire to rule over that which you have no place to rule, and to seal your own body, and develop your mind like a man, then I will be your brother. Until then, into the fields and the trees with you.

*Again, this is so condescending. You want women to take control and be "like a man", "like a brother", but when this happens you are appalled. So what is it that you want exactly?? A woman to stay in her place(role), or a woman who is capable of standing in for you when you are unable to stand?? Or do you just enjoy complaining about the roles that women take in this world no matter what that role is?

Originally posted by Arkaleus
I have seen rage and bitterness, and it is a female entity. Don't try to push your own illness on me. I know how your minds work, and I know your every deception. You will deny these things, but I am wiser than you. Foolish and silly women, you haven't changed in all this time.

*I'm sorry that you have seen what you've seen and been through what you've been through. I hope life in general get's better for you soon and that you are able to step outside yourself for a moment and realise that your arguement reveals itself as being based on nothing more than feeling inadequate yourself.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
Reason and sense dare not rise up in your heads, lest it make you wise and unable to serve the forces your sisterhood imposes upon you. I pity the wise and good girl whose mind is sent to her by Christ, for her oppressions are as great as mine.

* I enforce no such thing upon you my dear brother. I am perplexed, to say the least, when I see a man behaving as a "sister" Because I have grown to expect that man should always behave as a man and that it is soley up to him to give up or maintain that manly identity.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
This nation, America, is suffering under the great weight of a womanhood out of control, and a imbecilic, impotent manhood. As if the bearing of children were glory to a man. Go and read the old books, and you will see that the wisest of men avoided women. Your children will rebel against you, because you lie to them and steal from them.

*Alrighty then.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
The upper classes of men are suffering from a disease of great ignorance, and they are oppressed by evil and greed. Being ground between these two stones, I am quite raw and upbraided. I can only hide myself as best I can, find what love I can among the wreckage of youth, and sing my praises to whomever will listen.

*I'm sorry I hear no singing of praises in your words. I wish I did. But all I hear is you singing out hatred. That is not like Jesus, so I wish you would not compare yourself to him lest you begin to actually behave as he would have.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
I wish to worship the perfect man, and develop his traits within myself. Are you peaceable towards this endeavor, woman? Are you willing to allow your sons the same grace as I? I clutch my shield for your inevitable response.

* Good on you! I hope eventually you can reach this goal. But so far, I do not see you anywhere close. I am VERY peaceable towards your endeaver, brother. I am more than willing to allow my son to develop his traits within himself and to also worship the perfect male man. This to me would be the most rewarding legacy that I could leave behind. See..you don't need your shield. I'm with you all the way. And I'll do whatever it takes to assist you in getting *man" back where he belongs, I am all for it. Just remember that it takes a will within yourself in order to implement the program to reach your ultimate goal, and sometimes that will might need some assistance, so don't be afraid or think you are less of a man if you reach for my hand, I will worship you even more so than before, not less.

I've read everything you've written, more than once. I think I've said everything I can say. I don't disagree with your intention or purpose! It takes a real man to make a woman an actual womanly entity. Without real men, the term woman would not exist. To me it is the most amazing yet rarest of things when I can look upon a man and woman and see the difference in the two without judging their outer appearence. That is what makes a true male and true female and that is what makes them so completely different, yet they share in one incredible spirit. I wish you the best in your journey, for you have a long and incredible purpose to fulfil, just try not to disregard me simply because we don't share the same body.

I do hope the "worship of perfect maleness" never disintegrates. And I hope too that in the process of making that perfection a reality that the female part of the equation does not get vanquished or abused.

Peace to you Arkaleus.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
I withdraw to my place.

Arkaleus.

You should not withdraw your place, ever.( But I see nothing wrong with withdrawing to your place as my Master so rightfully pointed out in the post beneath mine.

*Edited for spelling/grammer errors)*



[Edited on 11/25/04 by magestica]

Originally posted by magestica

Originally posted by Arkaleus
I withdraw to my place.

Arkaleus.

You should not withdraw your place, ever.

No, no.

He was withdrawing to his place, be it a cave, a den, or other reclusive domain where private thoughts can occur.

It is good to have one of those, narrow-necked or otherwise... and then to move on to something useful on return.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
No, no.

He was withdrawing to his place, be it a cave, a den, or other reclusive domain where private thoughts can occur.

It is good to have one of those, narrow-necked or otherwise... and then to move on to something useful on return.

It's nice that you take time out of your busy day to correct me by speaking for another(or typing for another in this case). And it's even nicer when we call ALL retreat from this place to gather those private thoughts then come back and share them for those who care to read.

You are the only known tangible male entity in my life whom I will always worship and love...even to a greater degree as you allow and time allows.

And to all..remember you must first want and then allow worship in order to be worshipped by your servant. (Be appreciative that you have at least one very willing participant, eternally)

I now retreat to my Masters' chamber, whilst I prepare myself for His Excellencies arrival and I will humbly await His chosen direction for the course of the evening and then follow and obey His orders until He sends me back into the dungeon for rest and recuperation.

All that your "Master" could do from this distance is to ship you the ATS points you somehow just received, for your forthrightness and not for submission or obedience.

The evening's activities when I beat a retreat from this place to that place will be a feast and a national treasure.

I do not think that Arkaleus has a "thing" about women. He has a feeling about men, which is accurate enough, and he has asked for some answers, which will come from within and from his fellows.

It is good that not everything has its basis in gender, but some things do.

I do enjoy a good response.

Firstly: Disagreeing with you is not hatred. Speaking something that you disagree with or would not say yourself is not "bitterness or hatred."

I am a young man struggling to emerge a fully independent male in a nation that has strangely become very hostile to anyone accomplishing this. When I went to the books to find out of this was something new, I discovered a great deal of information. Americans are very narrow. They do not know what came before them, and they do not look ahead. There used to be very different understandings of what it meant to live, think, and be.

I enjoy women, even today I enjoyed the company of a women that was a pleasure to speak with, intelligent and polite, witty and polite, sophisticated and real. But she as a woman, and this cannot ever be changed by intellect, debate, or education. Women are motivated by different things than males.

But. . .that's ok. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging our differences. My concern is that people are pretending that there is no difference between males and females, and I find this to be very harmful to society.

I have no hatred towards women or hatred towards feminine things. All I am asking for is a male temple, a place where OUR virtues and ideals are championed, preserved, and taught to our little brothers. That is my expectation from a fully developed nation.

In fact, I say that it is our RIGHT to have such things, because that is like the treasury of our race, essential for the preservation of the glories of the nation and the male's good character. That temple, my brothers and sisters, has been raided, sacked, and burnt to the ground by the forces of darkness and ignorance, and by the minions of this great new world order of money and slavery.

We've come a long way from our foundation, Americans. America isn't run by people who love Liberty, Intellect, or Reason, it is run by corporate devils and their combinations of power and wealth. It is time for the real men, the brothers - and the guardians of that sacred trust we call Liberty - to take a stand and defend the temple and its holy treasures. We are under attack, lads. We are under the most subversive, treacherous, deceptive, and devilish tyranny ever to appear in the American nation!

I haven't the time to spend debating withladies about this matter. It seems folly to do so, anyway. I am busy chasing down the trail of manliness in America. The manliness that caused the Colonists to take a stand against the reign of King George III, that made them reason with their words, their publications, and in their assemblies. That is the sacred treasure of masculine virtue that I am talking about.

When I bring it up to my peers, they think I have just landed from outer space. It is your own goddam history, you poor slaves. You have been totally taken, and I had no idea we had come to such a dark hour.

I suppose it is the natural course of events that must arrive, even the most well-meaning republics descend into war and tyranny sooner or later. But this is different, the tyrants have a whole new array of tools and systems that they NEVER had before. Technology, my friends, the computer revolution. We will be controlled in a way never before brought to the minds of men! This is humanity's darkest hour. How long will it endure before the spark of Liberty and Mind ignites into a fire yet again?

One thing is certain, we live in cycles, and they are as certain as the seasons. We move into the tyranny planned for us by evil men, and they except to rule it for a while. I strongly except them to end up destroying much of civilization, because they rely upon their abominable systems to rule it, and these systems require everything to remain stable and wealthy. It is fragile, and men cannot bear it for long.

You have elected a very evil person as your president, America. He is evil in a way many of you will not understand. Ignorance is forgivable in slaves, and in servants. But to be SO ignorant, SO coarse, SO foolish in the OFFICE of the PRESIDENT, is a crime against the whole world.

So ladies? There is a much bigger topic at hand, and I don't see ANY of you dealing with it. You just want to live like everything is OK, take your share and go. That is why I say to you, you are not worthy of equality with males. When it comes down to it, WE are the guardians of the Temple, WE fight and die for the REAL things, and those among the ladies who join us are EMULATING us, and nothing more.

Forgive me if I used you to vent my frustration, but I think you are silly. The dragon of very darkest pit is eating away at the USA and her children, and you are senseless to me. There is something that I notice about males - They perceive this situation too, but most of them have fallen, and refuse to cooperate with righteousness, or do so only grudgingly.

Brothers, without a virtuous group of men upon which to place the sacred responsibility of challenging the very real and wicked power that is taking over this world, we are a lost people. We are fated to be bound and destroyed, and our very rights taken away from us. Many of you don't see it coming, but those of us who look ahead can see it, so pay heed.

That's why I bring up these topics. It is not proper to keep these things private anymore. Even as the man who interrupts the party to let the guests know of the fire raging in the attic, I am.

Republic, Liberty, Rights, Manliness. These are your jewels, wear them worthily. Lads, this is what you SHOULD be learning, not the useless corruptions this society is attempting to erect as the new world order.

Where is the temple? I am wandering around again dammit.

Arkaleus the anti-federalist