Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

I'm sorry, when I am presenting very plain, dry and boring accounting numbers which state a plain truth of the movement of money from one named group (us) to other specifically named groups...I'm not going to play games or hedge anything about what I'm saying.

I have the confidence of the sourcing to the data. When it's from the absolute origin? So is the confidence in it's accuracy, unless other reasons exist to think it isn't credible.

In this case, I wasn't even looking for this. I was just data dumping hundreds of raw data sets of ALL kinds off USG public servers and ...wait a moment..whats this?? I was literally as surprised to have found it as others have been to read the summary. I think the radio segment I did on that story went pretty well too...but it is confidence, not bias.

In terms of Bias? I'll add this. Whatever we did? It does NOTHING to absolve or excuse what Putin did and Russia did plenty of their own pushing. I don't know who could be said to have drawn 'first blood' under the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances, but both sides very blatantly broke it and both sides legally opened their own interests to what came next.

If you see a place within the data where that isn't supported, please do let me know. It would mean a lot to correct the record, if it needs correcting. Especially after the basic facts of that thread have already been presented in multiple venues.

a reply to: dragonridr

Giving money to these countries is no different than money given in Africa as well.

The history lesson on the fall of the wall and the future of the Russian Federation post-Union is fascinating, but you do realize the money we're talking about has absolutely nothing whatever to do with any of that?

As I said...this wasn't "money given to Ukraine". Within the sheets I found and summarized are precisely which named groups, as you'd find them at a physical address at the time in Ukraine, the physical transfers of funds went to. These, by name and quick background checking, are or were key opposition groups to the events that changed power in Ukraine.

I'll stand by my data there and the conclusions I drew from it, 100% until or unless more conclusive or convincing evidence of similar origins is presented to contradict it. I put ungodly time into some threads precisely so I can have confidence to chat on specific aspects without researching each time it comes up. That was one of those threads.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
a reply to: ALoveSupreme

I'm sorry, when I am presenting very plain, dry and boring accounting numbers which state a plain truth of the movement of money from one named group (us) to other specifically named groups...I'm not going to play games or hedge anything about what I'm saying.

I have the confidence of the sourcing to the data. When it's from the absolute origin? So is the confidence in it's accuracy, unless other reasons exist to think it isn't credible.

In this case, I wasn't even looking for this. I was just data dumping hundreds of raw data sets of ALL kinds off USG public servers and ...wait a moment..whats this?? I was literally as surprised to have found it as others have been to read the summary. I think the radio segment I did on that story went pretty well too...but it is confidence, not bias.

In terms of Bias? I'll add this. Whatever we did? It does NOTHING to absolve or excuse what Putin did and Russia did plenty of their own pushing. I don't know who could be said to have drawn 'first blood' under the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances, but both sides very blatantly broke it and both sides legally opened their own interests to what came next.

If you see a place within the data where that isn't supported, please do let me know. It would mean a lot to correct the record, if it needs correcting. Especially after the basic facts of that thread have already been presented in multiple venues.

I have no doubt money is spent to promote democracy thats the point of USAID really. I know recently they gave 2 billion to the congo for there election. But does that mean the Congo is strategically important? No what it means is they feel its worth promoting stability in a region i mean bottom line is two democracies have never started a war.And when democracies actually are established threats in a region decrease. My problem with it is often the money is used to line someones pocket and there are countries where democracy isnt a good fit.When you try to force people into a democracy usually very poor results the people themselves must make the change i dont believe you can buy a change. As far as Ukraine goes there going to get alot of money however ultimately it will be up to them and there resolve on which path they take.

So the Kremlin-controlled Russian media is reporting the ambush this morning on the Donetsk checkpoint a few different ways which seem very incoherent.

Life News illogically claimsthat the attack on the Ukrainian military post was not carried out by Donetsk People's Republic but rather pro-Kyiv mercenaries who arrived in private vehicles, but then who also somehow had helicopter air support...

(In other words, they are claiming Ukrainian miltiary helicopters fired on their own men.)

Meanwhile, RT does not seem sure what to say in their very poorly written piece, quoting both Life News....

The witnesses told the channel that the transit vans, which the attackers used for transportation, belonged to the Privat-Bank, which is owned by oligarch Igor Kolomoisky.

Kolomoisky bankrolled the Ukrainian coup in February and largely contributed to the creation of the National Guard, which helped legitimize the far-right militants among the Maidan protestors.

...but also reporting exactly the opposite in a top picture's caption...

An ambulance carrying dead Ukrainian soldiers travels off the site (seen in background) where pro-Russian rebels killed thirteen Ukrainian servicemen on the outskirts of the eastern Ukrainian town of Volnovakha, south of Donetsk, May 22, 2014.

I had read in some comments that the People's Republic of Donetsk has now attributed the attack to a semi-independent pro-Russian militia. Looking to confirm this...

originally posted by: [post=17951122]tsurfer2000h
Those who are using the swastika do not represent the whole of Ukraine, so at least make that clear when you post because it may confuse members into thinking all Ukraine citizens follow the ideology.

This is why Russia is being blamed... people ignore whats right infront of them not sure why but they do.

The part where i say anyone PRO Russian which if you take a look at the votes held by Ukraine for or against joining the Russian federation is MOST OF UKRAINE never have votes been so in favor of something in situations like this. result... PRO Russia and that's from the Ukrainians for god sake. which means of course its not all the Ukrainians its just sadly the ones with the seat in the new govt and their army and the stupid youths who think this is some sort of messed up game! watch the videos of the 19-22 year old girls sitting in a circle making Molotov cocktails while a mob of guys attacks civilians with anything they can hold.

For the media question ... also answered in the same post YES don't trust Russian media either! When we told the truth we were called terrorists... now that Russia has officially decided it doesn't care what the UN thinks it we will pump out pro Russian tv 24/7, every single country does it. Only difference is if your Ukrainian in Russia you aren't hunted down and torched. Im in Australia and im reading yesterdays paper bit late and a article here that straight out says Russia is committing acts of terror on the poor Ukrainians.


As for the Mercs post,
when Russians in Ukraine announced that America is sending in Mercs to escalate the situation NOONE GAVE A SHIIT! literally no news on it around the world. NOW that Russia has taken a stand to all these other country's holding their hands behind their back all of a sudden we are sending in mercs! THERE ARE NO RUSSIAN GUERRILLA FORCES! its Russians stuck in Ukraine that have had enough images of people burning alive infront of them, bombs being dropped in city's! there are plenty of soldiers who although no longer belong to the army are trained well enough to defend what they believe in. since Russia cannot help at the moment.

although it means nothing if you believe what im saying, im trying to give you a quick peek behind all this media crap.
My grandfather is PRO Ukrainian and cannot stand how the soviet union handled country folk and is biter at Russia for it, My grandmother is sick at the moment. They are terrified at whats going on! BOTH WAR VETS! Im working 2 jobs to send them money to keep them safe and alive because their own govt is NOT sending pensions(who cares if THEIR OWN PEOPLE starve) is FINE with them not having gas and constantly promotes PRO Ukrainian tv saying Russia is terrorizing us, but you look out the window and its the Ukrainians walking the streets in huge numbers with torches bats poles guns etc... my aunt, cousin and a few other members of my family live in the next city over and the exact same thing. Russia needs to stop the terrorist who have taken control of Ukraine ASAP. i have mentioned alot of videos that you can look up on you own accord but i will not be linking anything to ATS because it is pure gore and awfully hard to watch whats REALLY going on to the innocent civilians. if you think your ok with it do some digging.

Bound to be typos bound to be broken rules i apologize for both.

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

OH wow nice picture and that's exactly what they are doing but not only firing, jets are also bombing inside city's... yep all true all supported by hundreds if not thousands of videos by now. we the Russians have no jets or choppers in Ukraine atm. their animals who are willing to cut down their own to make it look like we are absolute monsters! THEY WANTED TO NUKE RUSSIA THE RETARDS!!!! NUKE THEIR OWN LANDMASS ARE YOU UNDERSTANDING HOW CRAZED THESE FANATICS ARE?

look up the video of the Ukrainian soldiers with ATV's and tanks being begged by SENIOR CITIZENS (PRO USSR so both sides!!) NOT TO ATTACK THEIR OWN BROTHERS, then they crush the legs of a 76 year old man with the ATV and kick him to the curb.

THEY WERE BEGGED NOT TO ATTACK US THEY WERE BEGGED BY EVERYONE THEY CAME ACROSS!

Watch the video of the priest who managed to stop 2 Ukrainian ATV divisions from killing a group of people who were yelling STOP KILLING CIVILIANS. Unarmed civs being shot by the army... Police wont protect them, Russia CANT protect them... WHAT LEFT? lay down and die? NO they bare arms and defend what they called home their entire life.

So Pavel Gubarev of the Donetsk People's Republic is denying that their men are responsible for the outpost attack and laying blame on pro-Kyiv mercenaries...

hosted.ap.org...

Pavel Gubarev, a representative of the separatist Donetsk People's Republic, denied its men had carried out the attack, however. Gubarev, who does not appear to have much influence with the separatist group, appeared on Russian TV and accused Ukrainian nationalists from the group Right Sector of firing on Ukrainian soldiers because they had refused to attack civilians.

But then we have this other pro-Russian separatist commander in the town of Horlivka claiming responsibility...

A leading rebel commander claimed responsibility for the raid. In the courtyard of the occupied police headquarters of the town of Horlivka, he displayed seized Ukrainian weapons and the passports of what he said were two of the dead soldiers. He also provided coordinates about the location of the attack shortly after it had occurred. There was no way to confirm his claim independently.

a reply to: dragonridr

I have no doubt money is spent to promote democracy thats the point of USAID really.

...and that right there, made material breach and violation of the 1994 Budapest agreement. It didn't have to be to militant opposition groups who would become armed rebels following Senator John McCain's personal visit to rally them and get energy going last December. (Tho that IS who the money is recorded as being paid to, in part) Internal meddling with the political future of Ukraine was all it took.

Again..We didn't just start the fight out of the blue. Russia was pushing from the other side..but the suggestion seems to be it wasn't a TWO sided fight Ukraine got themselves squashed in the middle of. The facts don't seem, in my view, to support anything like that.

a reply to: Aarcadius

The part where i say anyone PRO Russian which if you take a look at the votes held by Ukraine for or against joining the Russian federation is MOST OF UKRAINE never have votes been so in favor of something in situations like this.

Where exactly are all these Ukraine that supports joining Russia, because if I remember correctly the vote in Crimea was a farce...

guardianlv.com...

Also how can one believe what Russia has to say about the percentage of yes votes when they have shown that their numbers seem to be a bit fudged when the final tally is done.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

FTR... The pro-Russian segments of Ukraine have been open, counted to measure and known by all for many many years.

After all, the Black Sea coast was a favorite from normal Russians with means to enjoy it to the upper levels of the Soviet Communist Party. It's no surprise at all that South and Eastern Ukraine would retain the Russian character it had from the Cold War days of the Soviet...not to mention the many times that land has been Russian territory over history.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
a reply to: ALoveSupreme

I'm sorry, when I am presenting very plain, dry and boring accounting numbers which state a plain truth of the movement of money from one named group (us) to other specifically named groups...I'm not going to play games or hedge anything about what I'm saying.

I have the confidence of the sourcing to the data. When it's from the absolute origin? So is the confidence in it's accuracy, unless other reasons exist to think it isn't credible.

In this case, I wasn't even looking for this. I was just data dumping hundreds of raw data sets of ALL kinds off USG public servers and ...wait a moment..whats this?? I was literally as surprised to have found it as others have been to read the summary. I think the radio segment I did on that story went pretty well too...but it is confidence, not bias.

In terms of Bias? I'll add this. Whatever we did? It does NOTHING to absolve or excuse what Putin did and Russia did plenty of their own pushing. I don't know who could be said to have drawn 'first blood' under the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances, but both sides very blatantly broke it and both sides legally opened their own interests to what came next.

If you see a place within the data where that isn't supported, please do let me know. It would mean a lot to correct the record, if it needs correcting. Especially after the basic facts of that thread have already been presented in multiple venues.

Sure, I will tell you:

All you did was give a breakdown of the various NGOs and Ukrainian organizations which received broad US State department funding in those years.

How does that establish a link to funding of specific opposition groups including the much vilified 'Right Sector' or others involved in the so called 'coup'?

And in any case, any funding for covert actions by the USA's Director of National Intelligence would not even be on that budget. So your data is more or less immaterial.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
a reply to: dragonridr

I have no doubt money is spent to promote democracy thats the point of USAID really.

...and that right there, made material breach and violation of the 1994 Budapest agreement. It didn't have to be to militant opposition groups who would become armed rebels following Senator John McCain's personal visit to rally them and get energy going last December. (Tho that IS who the money is recorded as being paid to, in part) Internal meddling with the political future of Ukraine was all it took.

Again..We didn't just start the fight out of the blue. Russia was pushing from the other side..but the suggestion seems to be it wasn't a TWO sided fight Ukraine got themselves squashed in the middle of. The facts don't seem, in my view, to support anything like that.

Very true but again ultimately the people get to decide i think this blew up in a large part because of corruption. Even Russia was accepting USAID until Putin started moving away from a democracy and more into a dictatorship. The reason USAID stopped in Russia was in a large part because he was afraid of the influence democracy would have on his power base. But in the end Putin will have problems controlling the Russians in the information age. Im curious as to how he believes he can control the Russian people they already started demonstrations against him. I think in a large part thats why he created the Ukraine crises in order to unite a group it is best to find an outside enemy to unite against. Works everytime its tried at least for a while anyway.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
a reply to: tsurfer2000h

FTR... The pro-Russian segments of Ukraine have been open, counted to measure and known by all for many many years.

After all, the Black Sea coast was a favorite from normal Russians with means to enjoy it to the upper levels of the Soviet Communist Party. It's no surprise at all that South and Eastern Ukraine would retain the Russian character it had from the Cold War days of the Soviet...not to mention the many times that land has been Russian territory over history.

Three huge problems with this...

1) The data is 10 years old, and therefore cannot reflect voter's opinions of these candidates subsequent to their job performances

2) It has to do with an election between Yushchenko and Yanukovych, and could easily be seen more as a polling between progressive reform versus conservative politics.

3) Did I mention it is 10 years old?

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Did you happen to watch when the flags were changed? EVERYONE was celebrating... Watch the celebrating and tell me that was a farce! the people were not even hiding their votes!! your ment to take your card fill it out at a booth... NOONE DID they ticked Russia thanked the voting staff and moved on while the staff were amazed... i mean come on WHO IS TELLING YOU IT WAS FAKE? because the people who live there could not have made it more clear. They Called for help and we answered.

Thank god we did. managed to save some lives already.

Because you seem VERY slow ill say this again... DONT trust the media... dont do it. trust the hundreds if not thousands of mobile video clips that are on the net these arent taken to make money they are taken to give you a REAL window into our hell!

Please no more links with "proof" im not here to argue im here to tell the community whats really going on.. i dont want to see any Ukrainians or Russians die... THEY ARE MY PEOPLE. But everything ive said in the posts ive made here in this thread are 100% true and anyone who has read everything i've wrote and still has doubts just doesn't care for the truth...Stay in your bubble but don't add your opinion on the matter in that case.

ive seen alot of videos and had a few sent to me by my family in ukraine, im am fighting tooth and nail to get my family from ukraine to australia. im sleeping 4 hours a day to work 2 jobs to save the money to feed them cloth them and to give them the required amount to even be considered for a visa over there... Because Ukraine was never perfect but now... it will never be the same. and its for the worst i fear.



sorry again for my typos ive had to rush my post with 4% battery left and only an hour of time to get some sleep. this will be my last post on this topic please read my words with your hearts and minds not clouded by what you've heard.

Thank you mods and admins for understanding my violations.

Instead of claiming to know how all Ukrainians think, how about we examine a thorough and scientific poll conducted very recently in 2014 on many questions including Ukrainians support for secession?

It showed that only Crimeans favored secession in the majority.

www.pewglobal.org...

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

Due to major industries in the Eastern region, the mostly ethnic Russian folks have more incentive to become independent country. The per capital incomes and growth will suddenly rise as a result for the eastern region.

As per what I am reading from various sources, it seems people in the western region have some "real real real" animosity, contempt and outright vengeance like feelings towards the Russians in general. The actions of western folks have been like enemies and shows immense amount of "venom and hatred" in feelings.

With such attitude, it is better that two regions split so that afterwards they can focus totally on themselves and not be involved in 'tussle politics' which impedes economic growth alot.

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

Well, I showed you what I've put long hours into. It's not sufficient for you. Thats fine.

We'll agree to disagree and I'll wish you well with your discussions here. I came to throw in a few points to the discussion..which I have.

I'll wander back if new developments warrant more to add.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
a reply to: ALoveSupreme

Well, I showed you what I've put long hours into. It's not sufficient for you. Thats fine.

We'll agree to disagree and I'll wish you well with your discussions here. I came to throw in a few points to the discussion..which I have.

I'll wander back if new developments warrant more to add.

I thought it was very cool but i dont think US AID is where we should be looking im curious what investments the big 3 oil companies made in Ukraine i suspect that will tell us whats really going on. Because i have a feeling alot of this conflict involves Oligarchs from Russia and Ukraine. The moment some in Ukraine appear to change there position things on the ground drastically changed.

In fact one of the major switches being Petro Poroshenko who was very much pro yanochovich now wanting to move to the west. I noticed at first he was all but silent on this but then when he took a huge leap in the polls now suddenly he establishing himself as the man with the plan. Our candy man has sort of switched allegiances im assuming there was a reason behind it. Just havnt found out why yet.

OSCE claim there ready for the elections in Ukraine they also said this is the largest election even in there history as well that says something actually.

osce.usmission.gov...