It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

page: 446
367
<< 443  444  445    447  448  449 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 07:20 PM
link   

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: SurrenderingAmerica



Interfax news agency said the Russian military chief in a phone conversation told his American counterpart that Ukraine had deployed a "substantial group of forces" near the Russian border, including troops whose purpose was to conduct sabotage.

Link


Conduct? or present to counter the sizable Russian forces near the border that was there to further destabilize Ukraine.



Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 2m
#Ukraine: #Russia's Gazprom issues May 7 ultimatum over gas supplies - Telegraph.co.uk... goo.gl... @BlogsofWar | EMPR News


Russians wont invade its all bluff. Russia cant afford a sustained conflict and Putin is seeing a government in Kiev right now vowing to fight to the death. Any conflict over two weeks and Russian supply lines will start to fail read a report describing how the military will start to fall apart Russia has yet to get logistics in line they still rely heavily on rail.And of course Ukrainians isnt going to let them do that. Russia doesnt have the ability to do force projection for a long period of time.




posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 08:30 PM
link   
Xcathdra:

What's not making the news are the protests against Putin's actions in Crimea / Ukraine. What's not making the news is the mass protests in Russia against State Media lying to the people.


If they are not making the news, how are you able to claim such reportage. How credible are your sources, those you don't link to?


When the economy tanks because of their actions in Ukraine and the repercussions from that, no amount of state media will be able to hide Putin's involvement.


This is something you hope to see, the collapse of Russia's economy and the end of Putin. I don't think you want this because of the way they are involved in the Ukraine, Ukraine and Ukrainians are nothing to you, but simply because you are prejudiced against Russia, against Putin. You can be no more certain that the Russian economy will 'tank' than I am of winning the lottery tomorrow...it is simply something you wish for...a wishful opinion.


90% approval rates are common when the results are determined by the state before the poll is put to the field.


A statement that is pretty much irrelevant


As for the constant misuse of invoking nuclear war.


Constant misuse of invoking nuclear war? Why do you consider the Ukraine crisis which is the cause of the deteriorating and fractious relations between the West (America specifically) and Russia as a misuse of invoking nuclear war? Russia has the capability to hurt America conventionally, and more specifically in nuclear terms. Both are nuclear powers militarily, and in a conflict with each other, both would certainly consider nuclear usage.

The fact that both have nuclear weapons is the only reason why both countries haven't actually gone to war with each other in the past. The way Kennedy acted in the Cuban missile Crisis in '63 was correct, he had to take the Russians to the brink, and give them the choice to make the right decision or to plunge the world into nuclear war. With the Ukraine crisis, the situation is similar but with roles reversed, and the ever-present threat of nuclear usage has re-emerged, as it always will when Russia and America fall out.

In practical terms, it is irrelevant how superior America's conventional forces may be to Russia's, as the possession of nuclear weapons makes conventional superiority pretty much moot. Back in '63, Kennedy was prepared to go to nuclear war against Russia for bringing their influence and weapons so close to the American mainland, and now today, Putin is acting in the Kennedy role, blockading Western influence and creep in the Ukraine, and will go to war (nuclear if necessary) to defend Russian interests in that region. The most significant interest to Russia in the Ukraine is the absence of Western influence. Kennedy felt he had the moral high ground, Putin believes he does today.

Putin has mobilised Russian troops along Russian borders as a wait and see policy, and the West should view it for what it is...a real and definite warning, even as the West (specifically America) remains in its face constantly goading Russia.

America is in the wrong! The West in general, in support of America's rhetoric and downright lies, is in the wrong. The Ukraine crisis is a post-Soviet problem, specific to that region. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with America or the West, but between the Ukrainian peoples of all ethnic diversity. If it wasn't for the Western influence fomenting chaos, Russian troops wouldn't be at those borders, because Putin would not see a need for them.


I just wish people today would educate themselves on the doctrine and how it kept the peace during the cold war.


Yeah, me too...because some posters believe themselves the only knowledgeable folk around. If anybody has an alternative viewpoint they are considered ignorant...rather like your statement.

edit on 25/4/14 by elysiumfire because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 09:03 PM
link   
Certain Russians are waking up to whats really going on in Ukraine. Its only going to grow the only question is how long. IMHO i think its going to be when the economy is severly damaged because the blame will be placed on him.




Former oil tycoon Mikhail Khodorkovsky has said ordinary Russians are paying the price for President Vladimir Putin's "personal grudge" against protesters in Ukraine.

Putin "is offended because of the revolution, because the thieving former President Yanukovych and his corrupt entourage have been forced into exile. The parallels hit too close to home for him," Khodorkovsky said at a conference held Thursday in Ukraine's capital Kiev.

"Once again, this time in Ukraine, he is using his office to avenge a personal grudge," the former Yukos CEO said, according to a transcript of the speech posted on his website.

The annexation of the Black Sea peninsula Crimea last month has boosted Putin's domestic approval ratings and increased many Russians' perception of their country's standing, recent polls show.

But Khodorkovsky, who spent almost a decade in prison in a case that many believe was politically motivated before his release under presidential amnesty in December 2013, said Russians themselves were paying the price for Putin's focus on "rules of centuries past."


www.themoscowtimes.com...
edit on 4/25/14 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 09:21 PM
link   

originally posted by: elysiumfire.........hot air..............

By looking at the media that has been having issues in Russia for failing to report on only what Putin wants. I would recommend you look around in the realm of media where you will see what I am talking about.

Search Engines are your friend.
Protests in Russia against Putin’s actions in Ukraine a shift in attitudes
Thousands Protest In Moscow For Media Freedom

The remainder of your post demonstrates your lack of understanding of nuclear weapons between Russia and the US. It ignores the fact Russia brought this entire situation upon everyone by Putin throwing a temper tantrum because no one "respected" him.

If you have anything relevant let me know and I will read and respond.


Breaking News ‏@BreakingNews · 10m
G7 leaders agree to 'move swiftly' to impose new sanctions on Russia over Ukraine crisis, White House says - @AP www.breakingnews.com...



CNBC's Politics Team ‏@CNBCPolitics · 18m
G7 Leaders statement: "We have now agreed that we will move swiftly to impose additional sanctions on Russia" over Ukraine situation.



RT ‏@RT_com · 25m
CrossTalk: #Ukraine Info War youtu.be... @PLCROSSTALK



posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 09:25 PM
link   
Screw the Geneva accord or threat of Sanctions both ways or WW3......one simple item can bring all the global tension down and stop the Ukraine region from going into a major crisis:

NATO agrees that it will no longer expand to any of the CIS nations or former Soviet republics.


As simple as that. Can NATO do this to avoid a major war or even WW3 from taking place?

Or the arrogance of power is too much to overcome ??

NATO

edit on 25-4-2014 by victor7 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 09:56 PM
link   

originally posted by: victor7
Screw the Geneva accord or threat of Sanctions both ways or WW3......one simple item can bring all the global tension down and stop the Ukraine region from going into a major crisis:

NATO agrees that it will no longer expand to any of the CIS nations or former Soviet republics.


As simple as that. Can NATO do this to avoid a major war or even WW3 from taking place?

Or the arrogance of power is too much to overcome ??

NATO


So first thank you for being realistic i hate the false premise the Kremlin is trying to pass off. We all know this has nothing to do with ethnic Russians that was a lie created by Putin. Now dealing with Ukraine the reality was they were not going to be a member of NATO. Theirs two reasons one strategically it was another Berlin. People who were stationed in Berlin during the cold war were told how many minutes they were expected to last in a hot war. None was over one hours to complete destruction of the entire Berlin brigade. The Brigade was more symbolic than any threat to the soviets.

Now Ukraine is the same exact thing there is such a thing as being to close so if NATO had perceived Russia as a threat Ukraine is a liability not an asset much like Berlin.Well the second point is simple Ukraine wouldnt have joined they didnt consider it necessary. Well Putin with his bone head move has managed to change both of these in one swoop. I can all but guarantee Ukraine will join NATO now and it will be excepted as a symbolic Gesture and they will put troops there just like Berlin with life expectancy in minutes. But now hes changed the game in one respect who better to help spy on the Russians than Ukrainians and they now despise Putin so it will have its benefits down the road i guess.

So in conclusion it is Putin thats creating the situation he apparently was attempting to avoid. This will go down in history as a huge blunder when its all said and done. Now in Putin's defense maybe he was duped in to this and fell for an imaginary scenario that someone wanted him to believe probably CIA. But either way at this point he made a huge mistake.



posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 10:12 PM
link   
Ukrainian Presidential/Language issue poll (translated to English)

Basically, it seems as thought Poroshenko is winning by a very wide margin. Granted, this poll probably took place more in the east than anything. Another interesting thing is that it does show a majority want good relations with Russia still, a moderate view on the language issue, and a desire to avoid a federalized state.

Who is Petro Poroshenko?

The relevant details:


Ukraine's "chocolate king" Petro Poroshenko was a major supporter of the anti-government protestors in Ukraine, and continues to support the newly created government facing threats from Russia.


In other words, he's on the side of the Euromaiden folk. With results showing him winning by a large margin, this could bode ill for a successful disengagement of Russia.



posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 10:29 PM
link   
a reply to: dragonridr

Ukraine or any other former Soviet republic joining NATO will unleash "very dark forces".

Russia is NOT kidding on this point.

Unfortunate that decision makers do not understand this........hope they will soon while the peace is still around.




posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 10:31 PM
link   
a reply to: victor7

Who gave Russia or NATO the ability to tell sovereign nations who they can and cannot do business / have military ties with?

Former East Bloc nations would not approach NATO had they not been occupied for more than 60 years by the Soviet Union / Russia. If a nation wishes to join NATO, just as a nation who wishes to ally with Russia, should be free to do so.
I don't see NATO invading Belarus in order to put a buffer between Poland and Russia.

Russia must withdraw from Ukraine.
It must withdraw its forces from Crimea.
It must stop its provocative / destabilizing behavior towards Ukraine.

The reasons nations are moving towards NATO is because of Russian actions.



posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 10:32 PM
link   

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: dragonridr

Ukraine or any other former Soviet republic joining NATO will unleash "very dark forces".

Russia is NOT kidding on this point.

Unfortunate that decision makers do not understand this........hope they will soon while the peace is still around.



Why is Russia so paranoid?

Does Russia not understand that their actions are the very reason nations are wanting to join NATO / EU?



posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 10:33 PM
link   
And we possibly have Russian action inside a NATO country now -

Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 5m
Reuters: #Latvia says #Russia trying to use 'provocateurs' in Baltic state www.reuters.com... … | EMPR News #Ukraine #Crimea




(Reuters) - Latvia's defense minister said on Friday Russia was trying to stir unrest in the Baltic state by using "specially-trained, professional provocateurs" in the wake of its intervention in Ukraine.

The Baltic countries Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, now NATO and EU member states, were once part of the Soviet Union and have substantial Russian-speaking minorities, like Ukraine.

"There are risks that Russia might try to destabilize the situation in the region," Raimonds Vejonis, Latvia's defense minister, told Reuters in an interview.

"We see it very clearly in Ukraine's case, where they have acted and are still trying to escalate the situation in different ways," the minister added.

"They are trying to increase negative sentiment in society through certain specially-trained, professional provocateurs."

As an example, he mentioned comments by Aleksandr Gaponenko, an activist for non-citizens' rights in Latvia, to Norwegian television that Latvia's government intended "to suppress protests with the power of army".

Around 26 percent of Latvia's 2 million people are ethnic Russians. Many do not have Latvian citizenship and so cannot vote or apply for certain public-sector jobs. Moscow has long complained about the rights of ethnic Russians in the Baltics.

edit on 25-4-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-4-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 10:34 PM
link   
a reply to: Xcathdra

Buddy, when don't you write this "sovereign nation" logic on a nice expensive piece of paper and then read it quite a few times and finally the next morning...............wipe yourself with it !!

That might relieve the "mental block" in your thought process !!




posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 10:36 PM
link   

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: Xcathdra

Buddy, when don't you write this "sovereign nation" logic on a nice expensive piece of paper and then read it quite a few times and finally the next morning...............wipe yourself with it !!

That might relieve the "mental block" in your thought process !!



Because Russia, and apparently yourself, don't understand the concept of sovereign nation. Russia is making a massive mistake, as are you by constantly ignoring facts.

So you tell me, why are nations that border Russia not able to determine on their own who they have relations / military relations with?




Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 14m
The Council of Europe is sending a mission to #Ukraine to monitor Presidential Elections | EMPR News pic.twitter.com/bmsXg4xGcR

edit on 25-4-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-4-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 10:44 PM
link   
a reply to: Xcathdra

Kindly refer to the post made at "posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 10:34 PM"

if that does not get you the answers, then refer to it again again again and implement the recommendations over several weeks..............until the "mental block" is totally removed.........for the world peace !!!



posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 10:48 PM
link   

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: Xcathdra

Kindly refer to the post made at "posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 10:34 PM"

if that does not get you the answers, then refer to it again again again and implement the recommendations over several weeks..............until the "mental block" is totally removed.........for the world peace !!!


So you can't give a reason as to why sovereign nations can decide themselves who they have foreign / military relations with. Its not the Soviet Union anymore, so when they say jump surrounding nations are not going to just ask how high.

they will say screw off and approach the west / EU / NATO.

The sooner Putin, and by extension people in this thread, understand that concept the better you might be able to understand that Putin's position is the cause of the very actions he has issues with.

By the time Putin is done with his temper tantrum any nations around him he has not invaded very well may be a part of the EU / NATO by the end of this.


Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 6m
JUST RELEASED G-7 Leaders Statement on #Ukraine www.whitehouse.gov... … |EMPR News #Russia


G-7 Leaders Statement on Ukraine
We, the leaders of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom, the United States, the President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission, join in expressing our deep concern at the continued efforts by separatists backed by Russia to destabilize eastern Ukraine and our commitment to taking further steps to ensure a peaceful and stable environment for the May 25 presidential election.

We welcomed the positive steps taken by Ukraine to meet its commitments under the Geneva accord of April 17 by Ukraine, Russia, the European Union, and the United States. These actions include working towards constitutional reform and decentralization, proposing an amnesty law for those who will peacefully leave the buildings they have seized in eastern Ukraine, and supporting the work of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). We also note that the Government of Ukraine has acted with restraint in dealing with the armed bands illegally occupying government buildings and forming illegal checkpoints.

In contrast, Russia has taken no concrete actions in support of the Geneva accord. It has not publicly supported the accord, nor condemned the acts of pro-separatists seeking to destabilize Ukraine, nor called on armed militants to leave peacefully the government buildings they've occupied and put down their arms. Instead, it has continued to escalate tensions by increasingly concerning rhetoric and ongoing threatening military maneuvers on Ukraine's border.

We reiterate our strong condemnation of Russia's illegal attempt to annex Crimea and Sevastopol, which we do not recognize. We will now follow through on the full legal and practical consequences of this illegal annexation, including but not limited to the economic, trade and financial areas.

We have now agreed that we will move swiftly to impose additional sanctions on Russia. Given the urgency of securing the opportunity for a successful and peaceful democratic vote next month in Ukraine's presidential elections, we have committed to act urgently to intensify targeted sanctions and measures to increase the costs of Russia's actions.

Russia's actions in Ukraine and the response from the international community already have imposed significant costs on its economy. While we continue to prepare to move to broader, coordinated sanctions, including sectoral measures should circumstances warrant, as we committed to in The Hague on March 24, we underscore that the door remains open to a diplomatic resolution of this crisis, on the basis of the Geneva accord. We urge Russia to join us in committing to that path.



posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 11:18 PM
link   

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: dragonridr

Ukraine or any other former Soviet republic joining NATO will unleash "very dark forces".

Russia is NOT kidding on this point.

Unfortunate that decision makers do not understand this........hope they will soon while the peace is still around.



Why is Russia so paranoid?

Does Russia not understand that their actions are the very reason nations are wanting to join NATO / EU?


No that seems to be the very point most people arent getting. Russia was considered zero threat to NATO until now. You dont put your enemy in your headquarters yet Russia was a partner of NATO. In fact was talk of them joining NATO until Putin made it clear that wasnt going to happen. It was Russia that couldnt let the past die in retrospect the west was duped. They helped the Russians revive there economy thinking the world would be a safer place with a strong Russia. I guess as usual the west misjudged intentions and once again created our own worst enemy. You think we would learn by now totry to stop getting people to embrace democracy when large areas of the world need to be told what to do and how to act. Alot of countries cant handle a free market society i must admit even i thought Russians wanted freedom but they miss structure. And structure is just not something you get in a free society.



posted on Apr, 26 2014 @ 12:18 AM
link   
Based on observations here and other sources, taking into account general attitude/rhetoric and considering the financial actions of both sides, It is my believe Russia will invade E Ukraine within the next 10 days, Russia would not have invested and risked this much just to turn around.



posted on Apr, 26 2014 @ 12:19 AM
link   
To show you what Putin has accomplished over this stunt of his heres a great article its talking about the attitude change thats occurred do to Russian aggression.aggression. Heres an article which talks about responses that must be taken to Putins acts of aggression. As i stated he created the exact thing he was trying to avoid or as this will soon be known the beginning of the end its a shame Russia could have been a global leader .




We recently visited Norway, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Moldova. In each country, our allies want a stronger immediate response to Russia’s annexation of Crimea and its ongoing subversion of Ukraine. They also believe, as we do, that Russian President Vladimir Putin’s latest acts of aggression require an enduring strategic response from the United States, Europe and NATO. It should be clear to all that Putin’s Russia has taken a dark turn. There is no resetting this relationship. We cannot return to business as usual.

Western countries had high hopes for our relationships with Russia after the Cold War and acted on that basis. We provided billions of dollars to help Russia’s transition from communism. We created new mechanisms for consultation. We expanded trade. NATO committed not to deploy significant military capabilities onto the territory of new alliance allies, even as it expanded. In short, the West sought to include Russia in the promise of a Europe whole, free and at peace — a vision we still believe would benefit all participants.





He may play along with Western diplomats eager to avoid conflict, as happened recently in Geneva, but only as a way to consolidate his gains, divide the United States and Europe, play for time and prepare to push further. Western weakness emboldens Putin. The only thing he respects, and that can change his calculus, is greater strength.






Ultimately, Putin’s actions in Ukraine require a strategic response. This does not mean a new Cold War. But it does require recognizing Putin’s geopolitical challenge to the post-Cold War order in Europe and preparing for a more competitive relationship with Russia.

NATO must recommit to its core missions of deterrence and collective defense. This requires a rebalancing of the alliance’s force posture and presence. NATO military capabilities must be increased and more evenly distributed across the alliance, including a more robust and persistent presence in Central Europe and the Baltic countries. Some steps in this direction are underway; these actions must be sustainable and enduring.

www.washingtonpost.com... l?hpid=z2
edit on 4/26/14 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 26 2014 @ 12:19 AM
link   
a reply to: dragonridr




They helped the Russians revive there economy thinking the world would be a safer place with a strong Russia.


Hey Man, I hope you do not "twist the facts" on topics when doing argument face to face. If ever you decide to, then make sure you have those boxer's face guards to prevent any serious dent on the facial bones.

Now back to real facts...............

Russian economy revived as a result of Oil and Gas prices taking an upturn since the 2000. Infact that is the main threat to Russia, that its economy is not diversified enough from reliance on the energy prices. Sadly, horrendous levels of corruption has not allowed other industries to prop up due to lack of investment. The annual capital flight of $30B and more has left lots of sectors of Russian economy "not nutured" and hence not competitive vis-a-vis western one's.



posted on Apr, 26 2014 @ 12:27 AM
link   
a reply to: victor7

So the billions the west put into the russian economy didnt help who do you think built those gas fields? where did the money come from to expand infrastructure in Russia. Realize the Russian government had nothing when the Soviets collapsed it was so bad everything went up for sale or stolen. You could buy KGB documents the west thought it was a good idea to pull Russia out of this hole. In truth looks like it was a mistake should have allowed it to fall further into the abyss. But as they say hindsight is 20 20 .It could have just as easily gone in the other direction this falls squarely on one man Putin.

Ps i dont worry ill do fine if someone decides to attempt to use violence. Is this some back up plan for russians the minute things dont work out attempt to use force is this the new Russia?


edit on 4/26/14 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)



new topics

top topics



 
367
<< 443  444  445    447  448  449 >>

log in

join