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Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

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posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 04:19 PM
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originally posted by: Matt1951

originally posted by: VirusGuard
a reply to: victor7


Are you sure the west wants to fight a war over the Ukraine or could it be that Putin/Iran and USA are not just pushing oil prices up to benefit all of them.


You hit the nail on the head.


Ah so we are once again back to oil prices -

Lets see -
* - Ethnic Russians in danger
* - Humanitarian issues
* - Coup in Kiev
* - NATO expansion
* - Asking to join Russia
* - Independence
* - Oil
* - Collapse of Soviet Union illegal
* - Formerly occupied E. European countries have Ethnic Russian populations.

am I missing anything else that has been stated by Pro Russian / Putin as justification for invasion of Ukraine?




posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 04:20 PM
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originally posted by: all2human
a reply to: Xcathdra
well said and starred, though I wish you would take your own advice




I thought I was when I started asking for the Pro Russian side to link to their sources so I could read and make up my own mind. I also started using Russian media when discussing Russian mindset and justifications for their actions.

What area am I failing in and what, in your opinion, can I do to address the issue you see? (serious question btw).



posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 04:22 PM
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Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 19m
#Crimea TVchannel isnt allowed to show Chubarov & Dzhemilev, leaders of Crimean Tatars, on air tsn.ua... … pic.twitter.com/zFa9YrOc11




Fox News ‏@FoxNews · 22m
Russian nuclear inspectors visit Montana launch facilities fxn.ws...

edit on 21-4-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)


Another Example of Russian lies -
Russian FM Lavrov says Kiev should implement Geneva deal

The political situation in Ukraine is far from stable after the country saw a coup in February and new people came to power amid riots, whom Russia does not recognize as Ukraine's legitimate authorities.


No "new" people came into power. The Parliament was elected by the people of Ukraine in Dec 2012, and as of the time of impeachment for Yanukovych, those members of Parliament were the exact same.

The temporary leadership have acting titles in their name, per the Ukraine Constitution.

I wish Russia would knock the bs off as their misrepresentation of facts and out right lies does nothing but further destabilize the situation. Just as the Russian "non existent" 40k troops on Ukraine's borders destabilize the situation.
Just as the Russian special forces in Ukraine destabilize the situation.
Just as the Russian invasion of Crimea destabilize the situation.
Just as Russian annexation of Crimea destabilize the situation.
Just as Pro Russian forces committing coups in any city they touch in Ukraine by masked men with weapons and non insignia uniforms and modern Russian weapons removing the elected official's and replacing them with appointed "rulers".

edit on 21-4-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 04:23 PM
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a reply to: dragonridr



There will be no world war 3 even Putin knows he would have to use his nuclear arsenal if he enters into combat with NATO.


Yes agree so this leaves two options in my mind.

1. Weak to little to no sanctions or the prospect of a war that can quickly escalate all the way to nuclear.
2. We are seeing the same trick as played over the Iranian crisis, all bluff to push up oil prices and military spending.

No one here wants to discus option two but it seems highly likely to me and a thread that got posted here today that hinted at this and was soon gone due to a lack of interest and if you go the other way and say "well Russia has nukes too" then you are in for a load of abuse, its not in the rules.



posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 04:34 PM
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a reply to: VirusGuard

I think people would be willing to accept it if it had merit. However, ill bite.

Who will benefiet more from increased oil prices?

The US / West / EU - who are not big exporter's of oil/gas.

or

Iran and Russia, who are exporters of oil gas. Iran and Russia both depend on gas prices to be at or above a certain level to generate income.

As for the use of nukes that discussion keeps appearing from the Pro Russian people. If people are going to argue Russian can kick NATO's ass in a conventional fight, then there should be no need for nuclear weapons deployment by Russia now should there?



posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 04:38 PM
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Yet another Russian lie - Open Skies agreement cancelation

Originally Russia denied the over flight due to bad weather. The weather was so bad in fact the skies were sunny, and clear to partly cloudy.

Then Russia violated the agreement a second time by denying the over flight beyond established time parameters.

Apparently now their excuse is the US/Czech team was "late"

US stance on Open Skies Treaty non-constructive — foreign ministry

MOSCOW, April 21. /ITAR-TASS/. The US stance on Open Skies Treaty is “highly non-constructive”, Foreign Ministry spokesperson Alexander Lukashevich said on Monday, April 21, commenting on the US decision to cancel an observation flight over Russia.

On April 14, a joint US-Czech mission failed to arrive at the Kubinka entry point in Russia at the agreed time (12:00 GMT). “At the request of the American side of the mission the arrival time was postponed for 24 hours. However, neither the Americans nor the Czechs showed up in Kubinka. When a new request for a postponement came, we rejected it for good reason, taking into account, among other things, the fact that Russia had already sustained certain costs while waiting for the American observation plane,” Lukashevich said.

“These costs were incurred mainly by engaging our resources for providing practical support to the mission,” he added.


Click link for remainder of article.
edit on 21-4-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 04:40 PM
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a reply to: VirusGuard


2. We are seeing the same trick as played over the Iranian crisis, all bluff to push up oil prices and military spending.

No one here wants to discus option two but it seems highly likely to me and a thread that got posted here today that hinted at this and was soon gone due to a lack of interest and if you go the other way and say "well Russia has nukes too" then you are in for a load of abuse, its not in the rules.


Since this seems to be the message you keep repeating, let us discuss number two. In what way have the sanctions on Iran been of benefit to the United States, either in terms of petroleum prices or military spending? Military spending is set to decrease in the near future. Also, since it is well known that Russia has nukes, I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Has someone denied that Russia has nukes, or is this just your clever way of making a threat on Russia's behalf on the one hand, while insinuating that there are unwritten rules of censorship on ATS?



posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 04:48 PM
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NBC News World News ‏@NBCNewsWorld · 8m
Kerry Prods Lavrov to Push Pro-Russia Rebels nbcnews.to...



What's that flipper - Timmy fell down the Mariana Trench...

RT America ‏@RT_America · 8m
US Navy reportedly to deploy combat dolphins, sea lions during NATO military drills in Black Sea on.rt.com...



Round 2 on the push to get the East / South part of Ukraine to pull a Crimea before the Presidential elections in May =

English EuroMaidan ‏@EuroMaidanEN · 9m
Shortly after the rally ended in Kharkiv today, 100 federalists elected a new Kharkiv "people's governor",... fb.me...



posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 05:10 PM
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RT ‏@RT_com · 3m
US lawmakers call on sanctions against Gazprom, Russian banks on.rt.com...




Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 4m
#Russia Bans Four #Ukrainian Banks in #Crimea, Including PrivatBank wp.me... | EMPR News




Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 7m
In #Crimea only 1 out of 3villages has gas line supply.1 out of 10solely reliant on imported water supply ru.krymr.com... … @RealCrimea




Christiane Amanpour ‏@camanpour · 11m
“Media is under siege in Ukraine.” That’s the assessment of an @OSCE rep just back from a fact-finding mission: cnn.it...



posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 05:15 PM
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The hits just keep on coming from Russia -

What Putin Is Costing Russia - Former finance minister Alexi Kudrin projects up to $160 billion in capital will flee this year.



By Ilan Berman


April 20, 2014 5:24 p.m. ET


Just how much is Vladimir Putin's Ukrainian adventure actually costing Russia? Quite a lot, it turns out.

New statistics from the Central Bank of Russia indicate that almost $51 billion in capital exited the country in the first quarter of 2014. The exodus, says financial website Quartz.com, is largely the result of investor jitters over Russia's intervention in Ukraine and subsequent annexation of Crimea.

As Quartz notes, this was the highest quarterly outflow of capital from the Russian Federation since the fourth quarter of 2008. While Russia can mitigate some of the damage because of its extensive foreign-currency reserves—estimated at more than $400 billion—the new Central Bank statistics signal that worse is still to come.

Russia's economic development ministry has downgraded the country's forecast to less than 1% growth this year; an earlier estimate had been 2.5%. The World Bank projects that the Russian economy could shrink nearly 2% in 2014. That would cost Russia in the neighborhood of $30 billion in lost economic output.

Meanwhile, the Russian government's bid to pressure Ukraine could end up backfiring. The state-controlled natural-gas giant, Gazprom, OGZPY -2.87% recently jacked up the price of gas to Ukraine by 80% and levied an $11.4 billion bill on Kiev for previously discounted energy sales. But observers say that the price hike could lead to a reduction in purchases as Kiev diversifies away from Russia toward friendlier European suppliers. This may already be happening. On April 9 the Ukrainian government retaliated by temporarily ceasing purchases of Russian gas, pending resolution of the pricing dispute.


Click link for remainder of article.



posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 05:15 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra


English EuroMaidan ‏@EuroMaidanEN · 9m
Shortly after the rally ended in Kharkiv today, 100 federalists elected a new Kharkiv "people's governor",... fb.me...


One hundred people "elected" a new government in a city with a population of 1.4 million. Why are they even pretending?



posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 05:19 PM
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originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Xcathdra


English EuroMaidan ‏@EuroMaidanEN · 9m
Shortly after the rally ended in Kharkiv today, 100 federalists elected a new Kharkiv "people's governor",... fb.me...


One hundred people "elected" a new government in a city with a population of 1.4 million. Why are they even pretending?



To give Moscow something to use in the media when the region declares "independence" and asks to join Russia. every single area touched by Pro Russian forces have in fact had their elected officials overthrown by armed masked men only to be replaced by arbitrary means.

A fair election in the south and East / Crimea will have the same results as they have in the past - They will vote to remain with Ukraine. Russia cannot afford that, so we see them using the same plan for they used in Crimea. I think Russia is going to act before the may presidential elections, and that opinion is supported by the recent developments in the South and East.

The Russians have lied so often about Ukraine that I think they are now buying into it themselves. I also think the Russian leadership is out of touch in the sense that they think other nations will support Russia if the information coming out of Russia is uniform (IR no independent / non critical examples allowed).
edit on 21-4-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 05:22 PM
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originally posted by: VirusGuard
a reply to: victor7

if Russia is up against NATO then they will fight on both sides of the black sea.

Not sure if the best plan would be Turkey because no one gives a dam about them really and in return for bloxking shipping Russia might pay a little visit to the seuz canal to see if they can jam the gates in a dam buster type raid.

You don't think Iran might block the straights at the same time, very strong friends these two are if the USA wants to throw it's hook in with NATO.

Out and out war is hell, it would be fought on several fronts with both sides going after soft targets but the ace up Russian's sleeve is that the country is so spread out and a few well paced spanners in the works like central London (NATO member too so it's all fair) will soon damage the west to a point where it would not want to continue.

Are you sure the west wants to fight a war over the Ukraine or could it be that Putin/Iran and USA are not just pushing oil prices up to benefit all of them.


Trading blows with NATO would require ALL of Russia's allies providing complete and maximum support right up front. They would need to follow the logic of "NOTHING BEYOND TODAY........THERE IS NO TOMORROW".

Who will do it.......Belarus, Kazakstan, North Korea, Iran, Syria.......but will China, India, Brazil ?? these are the main cards and complete support from them is not guaranteed.



posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 06:56 PM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra

RT ‏@RT_com · 3m
US lawmakers call on sanctions against Gazprom, Russian banks on.rt.com...




Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 4m
#Russia Bans Four #Ukrainian Banks in #Crimea, Including PrivatBank wp.me... | EMPR News




Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 7m
In #Crimea only 1 out of 3villages has gas line supply.1 out of 10solely reliant on imported water supply ru.krymr.com... … @RealCrimea




Christiane Amanpour ‏@camanpour · 11m
“Media is under siege in Ukraine.” That’s the assessment of an @OSCE rep just back from a fact-finding mission: cnn.it...


I saw this earlier on CNN since you brought it up. Its talking about whats going on in Kiev. We dont hear about this very much but they were talking about the protestors in the Maiden see in the east they believe they are illegally grabbing buildings and there explaining the difference,Bottom line is pro russians are illegally taking over buildings while in Kiev the protesters actually signed leases with building owners to use buildings by Maiden and even gotten permits to protest. This makes sense since remeber when right sector did there impromptu rally a couple of weeks ago now and they said they were arrested. The statement was they were arrested for failure to get a permit for the protest.

www.cnn.com...



posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 07:14 PM
link   

originally posted by: VirusGuard
a reply to: dragonridr



There will be no world war 3 even Putin knows he would have to use his nuclear arsenal if he enters into combat with NATO.


Yes agree so this leaves two options in my mind.

1. Weak to little to no sanctions or the prospect of a war that can quickly escalate all the way to nuclear.


Well i disagree the sanctions are going to be inacted it is now in the EUs best interest and the EU knows Russia isnt going to Nuke them because Russia isnt going to commit suicide you cant have a country if it becomes radioactive.



2. We are seeing the same trick as played over the Iranian crisis, all bluff to push up oil prices and military spending.

No one here wants to discus option two but it seems highly likely to me and a thread that got posted here today that hinted at this and was soon gone due to a lack of interest and if you go the other way and say "well Russia has nukes too" then you are in for a load of abuse, its not in the rules.


The Reason why no one wants to discuss this is it makes no sense.The Iran crisis hasnt affected oil prices in the least. Iran exports about 1 million barrels a day this isnt enough to swing oil prices.Now if they loosen the sanctions against Iran and Europe takes them up on their offer to replace russian gas shipments.The effect this would have would be to lower the prices not raise them. My question is will they be willing to lighten the sanctions it really comes down to who they believe is a bigger threat Russia or Iran.












posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 07:18 PM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra

Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 19m
#Crimea TVchannel isnt allowed to show Chubarov & Dzhemilev, leaders of Crimean Tatars, on air tsn.ua... … pic.twitter.com/zFa9YrOc11




Fox News ‏@FoxNews · 22m
Russian nuclear inspectors visit Montana launch facilities fxn.ws...


Another Example of Russian lies -
Russian FM Lavrov says Kiev should implement Geneva deal

The political situation in Ukraine is far from stable after the country saw a coup in February and new people came to power amid riots, whom Russia does not recognize as Ukraine's legitimate authorities.


No "new" people came into power. The Parliament was elected by the people of Ukraine in Dec 2012, and as of the time of impeachment for Yanukovych, those members of Parliament were the exact same.

The temporary leadership have acting titles in their name, per the Ukraine Constitution.

I wish Russia would knock the bs off as their misrepresentation of facts and out right lies does nothing but further destabilize the situation. Just as the Russian "non existent" 40k troops on Ukraine's borders destabilize the situation.
Just as the Russian special forces in Ukraine destabilize the situation.
Just as the Russian invasion of Crimea destabilize the situation.
Just as Russian annexation of Crimea destabilize the situation.
Just as Pro Russian forces committing coups in any city they touch in Ukraine by masked men with weapons and non insignia uniforms and modern Russian weapons removing the elected official's and replacing them with appointed "rulers".



Yanukovych is still a legal president of Ukraine and nothing can change that fact.

This is from Ukranie's constitution

Title V, Article 111 says:

The President of Ukraine may be removed from the office by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine in compliance with a procedure of impeachment if he commits treason or other crime.

The issue of the removal of the President of Ukraine from the office in compliance with a procedure of impeachment shall be initiated by the majority of the constitutional membership of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

The Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine shall establish a special ad hoc investigating commission, composed of special prosecutor and special investigators to conduct an investigation.

The conclusions and proposals of the ad hoc investigating commission shall be considered at the meeting of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

On the ground of evidence, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine shall, by at least two-thirds of its constitutional membership, adopt a decision to bring charges against the President of Ukraine.

The decision on the removal of the President of Ukraine from the office in compliance with the procedure of impeachment shall be adopted by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by at least three-quarters of its constitutional membership upon a review of the case by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine, and receipt of its opinion on the observance of the constitutional procedure of investigation and consideration of the case of impeachment, and upon a receipt of the opinion of the Supreme Court of Ukraine to the effect that the acts, of which the President of Ukraine is accused, contain elements of treason or other crime.

Here’s what’s wrong with the alleged impeachment that has taken place.

I don’t think either the two-thirds majority or the three-quarters majority were met at all, considering circumstances
at the time (intimidation of members of parliament by armed thugs who were inside the building overlooking sessions).
There was no investigating commission appointed—just one session of voting.
There is no mention of what crime specifically Yanukovych allegedly committed, simple because he has not committed any crime in order to be impeached. Period.


So we have a bunch of thugs overtaking the parliament by force and you are saying it is all legal and we have legitimate government in Ukraine? Please.

edit on 21-4-2014 by cosmonova because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 07:20 PM
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originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: Xcathdra

RT ‏@RT_com · 3m
US lawmakers call on sanctions against Gazprom, Russian banks on.rt.com...




Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 4m
#Russia Bans Four #Ukrainian Banks in #Crimea, Including PrivatBank wp.me... | EMPR News




Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 7m
In #Crimea only 1 out of 3villages has gas line supply.1 out of 10solely reliant on imported water supply ru.krymr.com... … @RealCrimea




Christiane Amanpour ‏@camanpour · 11m
“Media is under siege in Ukraine.” That’s the assessment of an @OSCE rep just back from a fact-finding mission: cnn.it...


I saw this earlier on CNN since you brought it up. Its talking about whats going on in Kiev. We dont hear about this very much but they were talking about the protestors in the Maiden see in the east they believe they are illegally grabbing buildings and there explaining the difference,Bottom line is pro russians are illegally taking over buildings while in Kiev the protesters actually signed leases with building owners to use buildings by Maiden and even gotten permits to protest. This makes sense since remeber when right sector did there impromptu rally a couple of weeks ago now and they said they were arrested. The statement was they were arrested for failure to get a permit for the protest.

www.cnn.com...


lol lol lol, everything to justify a violent coup. Well coming from CNN, nothing can surprise us really.

P.S. it is B-52
edit on 21-4-2014 by cosmonova because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 07:27 PM
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Security Service building in Kramatorsk taken over by people's south east army. People cheering in front of the building.

www.youtube.com...



posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 07:41 PM
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People's Republic Novorossia formed in Odessa yesterday.

You will need you use captions for translation

www.youtube.com...



posted on Apr, 21 2014 @ 07:43 PM
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originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Xcathdra


English EuroMaidan ‏@EuroMaidanEN · 9m
Shortly after the rally ended in Kharkiv today, 100 federalists elected a new Kharkiv "people's governor",... fb.me...


One hundred people "elected" a new government in a city with a population of 1.4 million. Why are they even pretending?



Hey i officially vote you the new governor congratulations.



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