Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

originally posted by: VirusGuard
a reply to: DJW001

What on earth makes you think that NATO can block the black see and then you talk about "Russians think you are magically invincible"

Because the Bosporus straights run through Turkey and Turkey controls the movement of military vessels through its waters. Turkey is a NATO country as well as host to a large number of Tartars. If Russia wants access then maybe they should not pull the stunts they are in Ukraine?

If you are not going to bother doing research then why bother to post here?

It would be really nice to get back to updates from the Ukraine. If I wanted an education on space weapons I would find a different forum......

a reply to: Xcathdra

"If you are not going to bother doing research then why bother to post here?"

Do you not think Russia can deal with Turkey to unblock the black sea or is that too hard for you to think about.

The Panama canal was not always controlled by the USA, got stolen/liberated from the French and the British so it's not a massive jump of faith to think Russia could or would not do the same and in any case friends in Syria might want some payback in the region for the past two years of trouble from Turkey.

originally posted by: VirusGuard
a reply to: Xcathdra

"If you are not going to bother doing research then why bother to post here?"

Do you not think Russia can deal with Turkey to unblock the black sea or is that too hard for you to think about.

Do you realise that if they do do that they will drag turkey into this and kick off the third world war as well?
This is the same thinking that Iran can stop people from using the entrance to the persian gulf for more than a minute with no repurcussions. Stop letting your pride influence your postings. All it does is make people less inclined to even discuss it with you. Turkey can actually bite back hard if Putin trys to force his way through though.

originally posted by: VirusGuard
a reply to: Xcathdra

"If you are not going to bother doing research then why bother to post here?"

Do you not think Russia can deal with Turkey to unblock the black sea or is that too hard for you to think about.

I think first and foremost your position and comments regarding Russia are bordering on the absurd mixed with overzealous nationalism.

You tell me - Why would it be acceptable for Russia to go after Turkey should Turkey, a sovereign nation, decide to not allow Russian military vessels thru its waters?

What makes Russia so special that countries must do what they are told by Putin or face war? That position / attitude is EXACTLY why Russia is in the mess its in now. You, Russia and others are trying to make Russia out to be a victim when they are anything but.

If Russia wants better relations with its neighbors then maybe they should start treating their neighbors as sovereign entities that can determine their own future instead of Russia screaming about self determination only to make the decision for those neighbors?

Invading Ukraine, threatening Turkey, threatening the Baltic nations, Finland, Poland, Moldova.

As for the comment about Russia dealing with Turkey - Did you forget Turkey is a member of NATO? Any aggression towards Turkey and its aggression towards all of NATO.

Saber rattling does no good to anyone. The west / EU / NATO have thus far pushed for diplomatic solutions, which is far more than Russia's solutions, which is to invade and annex portions of countries that once belonged to the former soviet union, who were occupied for more than a decade, all because Putin is throwing a temper tantrum.

I don't think you fully understand the realities of a modern war. I don't think many people understand the realities of a modern war. To base a position solely on nationalistic fervor is dangerous, and lest we forget history, is the cause of 2 world wars.

When faced with the possibility of history repeating itself because of Russia and its paranoia, the question must be asked -

Where does one draw the line, where crossing that line moves from political / economic isolation to open warfare to prevent a 3rd world war?

A war based on the premise of territorial gain des not work, and has not worked since the end of WWII.

a reply to: yuppa

Turkey is already involved as a member of NATO even if Russia opens the black sea or not using force and yes try to Block Russia and it not a phony war like I keep saying then it is WWIII

This MAD thing cuts both ways, limited won't stay limited if anyone pushes hard and anyone in the area close to Russia that has american missiles on it's land will obviously be the first to be targets.

Russia is not called a super power for no reason.

originally posted by: VirusGuard
a reply to: Xcathdra

"If you are not going to bother doing research then why bother to post here?"

Do you not think Russia can deal with Turkey to unblock the black sea or is that too hard for you to think about.

No i dont think Russia can just take care of turkey are you nuts. First question short of nuclear weapons with what? Russia doesn't have the ability to do anything to Turkey as long as they maintain air superiority and NATO will make sure of that.russia currently only has one base even capable of covering the black sea for extended periods. Turkey has 3. If there is a battle between Turkey and Russia over the black sea Russia lost the battle before it starts. But thats ok the black sea fleet is useless in all out war anyway nothing there that can help there to vulnerable and the days of ships steaming at one another firing guns is over. If you can't shoot something miles away you're useless. theres nothing in the black sea fleet with enough range to be relevant.

Because of Turkey being in NATO, it makes it difficult for Russia to blast its way from the Bosphorus.

However, there are many other ways Russia can make it very difficult for Turkey and make it cost for them to not take on Russia in any hostile manner.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I think first and foremost your position and comments regarding Russia are bordering on the absurd mixed with overzealous nationalism.

Can we stop the insults please and stick to the facts because I suspect I am being bated here and will have trouble if I respond in kind.

a reply to: Xcathdra
Nice try, just because people question the msm narrative , or who have opinions that contrast your own doesn't automatically make them Putin supporters.
US Vice President Joe Biden to visit Ukraine on April 21
www.kyivpost.com...
www.huffingtonpost.com...

originally posted by: VirusGuard
a reply to: yuppa

Turkey is already involved as a member of NATO even if Russia opens the black sea or not using force and yes try to Block Russia and it not a phony war like I keep saying then it is WWIII

This MAD thing cuts both ways, limited won't stay limited if anyone pushes hard and anyone in the area close to Russia that has american missiles on it's land will obviously be the first to be targets.

Russia is not called a super power for no reason.

There will be no world war 3 even Putin knows he would have to use his nuclear arsenal if he enters into combat with NATO. He couldn't win to many nations to much firepower against him. Putins policy is exactly opisit what you claim hes counting on the threat of nuclear war to keep things regional. You are a little over zealus in your belief in the russian armed forces. Though putin started putting money into it a couple of years ago its still decades behind the west. Russias military was sadly neglected after the collapse to the point of they were selling stuff to keep there military going. Its improved but its not recovered yet.

Did you guys run off the news posting members?

Wow.

originally posted by: VirusGuard
a reply to: Xcathdra

I think first and foremost your position and comments regarding Russia are bordering on the absurd mixed with overzealous nationalism.

Can we stop the insults please and stick to the facts because I suspect I am being bated here and will have trouble if I respond in kind.

baited? not at all.

Its an observation based on your position and comments to date. Your position towards Russia is based on the past, not the present nor the future. You do not adequately consider all factors simply because you are so intent on defending Russia and its "place" in the world. You dismiss certain facts by arguing about Russia military prowess, you make comments about how invincible Russia is while ignoring the facts that show the complete opposite.

Your entire position, along with a few others, is geared towards the position of A street fight. The fight starts because one side think they are being disrespected by the other. Instead of sizing up the situation and determining possible courses of actions, your position / Russian position has the person pulling out the switchblade and advancing without adequately understanding why the confrontation started in the first place in addition to not adequately paying attention to what's going on around them (situational awareness).

Instead, your position advances based solely out of anger of a perception of disrespect. When a person engages in a hostile action based solely on the mindset of "no one respects me", they don't bother looking at the entire picture. They are so set in trying to prove to the person they are trying to engage that they should respect them, that they lose focus on the important things that do matter.

In this case Putin, not Russia, is playing the "they are disrespecting me game". Its Putin, not Russia and that is the problem. Putin feels disrespected as an individual and is bent on trying to prove everyone else wrong.

That scenario, individual disrespect, has already been proven by history to be a failing strategy.

Back to you and my comment -
You rely too much on nationalistic verbiage. Just because Russia has won this or that in the past does not mean they will continue that trend. To assume so is dangerous and ultimately self defeating.

You support Russia and don't care much for the US / West / NATO / EU - That's fine and people don't have issues with that mindset. However, arguing in favor of Russia by using information based on social / ethnic perceptions is in fact nationalistic and absurd.

I say that because time after time in history, nations who set out on conquest / military campaigns based on perceived moral / ethnic superiority have lost.

Hence the comment and the absurdity of arguing a position from that premise.

originally posted by: all2human
a reply to: Xcathdra
Nice try, just because people question the msm narrative , or who have opinions that contrast your own doesn't automatically make them Putin supporters.
US Vice President Joe Biden to visit Ukraine on April 21
www.kyivpost.com...
www.huffingtonpost.com...

Except for when they dismiss MSM based on a perception of Russia with no facts to support it.

I have no issues with an opposing viewpoint - when that viewpoint is based on a reliable foundation and has merit. Simply commenting time after time Russia did not invade Ukraine when Putin himself has admitted to it is in fact absurd.

To dismiss the government in Kiev simply because they followed the Ukrainian Constitution that was signed back into law makes a counter argument absurd.

Ignoring facts to support a false narrative, coupled with blind nationalism / ethnic superiority by Putin is absurd.

If you don't understand that, then that's on you.

MFA Russia ‏@mfa_russia · 52s
Kiev should strictly abide by the provisions of Geneva deals on Ukraine, Sergey Lavrov told Frank-Walter Steinmeier en.itar-tass.com...

Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 14m
New owners of #Russian “Facebook” Watch what you say now @dennydov |EMPR Post #FreedomofSpeech #Putin pic.twitter.com/CHEVgX9mcN

Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 23m
Pro-#Ukraine meeting in Khartsyzsk, #Donetsk Oblast today www.pravda.com.ua... … |EMPR Post #UkraineIsUnited pic.twitter.com/sgo7yfB7zy

Christiane Amanpour ‏@camanpour · 33m
Journalists in #Ukraine on receiving end of “intimidation, threats, harassment” @OSCE monitor tells me cnn.it...

English EuroMaidan ‏@EuroMaidanEN · 34m
OSCE (Weekend) Report of April 21:

* Western, North & Central Ukraine: calm
* Dnipropetrovsk area: remains calm.... fb.me...

Quick overview

Euromaidan in English


OSCE (Weekend) Report of April 21:

* Western, North & Central Ukraine: calm
* Dnipropetrovsk area: remains calm. Local personnel unaware of the Geneva Statement.
* Donbas area: tensions remain high.
* Luhansk: State Security building remains occupied
* Sloviansk: entire town is under the control of armed groups; deteriorating.
* Mariupol: two out of three groups have left the city hall.
* Makiivka: occupiers in control of the city admin. bldg.
* Khartsyzk: occupiers in control of the city admin. bldg.
* South & other eastern regions: tense

Details found at link below.

OSCE Report - Latest from the Special Monitoring Mission in Ukraine – based on information received up until 20 April 2014, 20:00 (Kyiv time) - Kyiv 21 April 2014

Click link for detailed report and observations by OCSE Monitors.

a reply to: victor7

if Russia is up against NATO then they will fight on both sides of the black sea.

Not sure if the best plan would be Turkey because no one gives a dam about them really and in return for bloxking shipping Russia might pay a little visit to the seuz canal to see if they can jam the gates in a dam buster type raid.

You don't think Iran might block the straights at the same time, very strong friends these two are if the USA wants to throw it's hook in with NATO.

Out and out war is hell, it would be fought on several fronts with both sides going after soft targets but the ace up Russian's sleeve is that the country is so spread out and a few well paced spanners in the works like central London (NATO member too so it's all fair) will soon damage the west to a point where it would not want to continue.

Are you sure the west wants to fight a war over the Ukraine or could it be that Putin/Iran and USA are not just pushing oil prices up to benefit all of them.

a reply to: Xcathdra
well said and starred, though I wish you would take your own advice

originally posted by: VirusGuard
a reply to: victor7


Are you sure the west wants to fight a war over the Ukraine or could it be that Putin/Iran and USA are not just pushing oil prices up to benefit all of them.

You hit the nail on the head.

a reply to: VirusGuard

Again you are demonstrating exactly what I am talking about.

The Bosporus / Dardanelles' are controlled by Turkey because they are a part of their territory. Just as Russia denies access to their country by foreign military units, Turkey has a right to deny foreign military units from its territory.

To throw a temper tantrum by taking control of / shutting down the Suez is absurd. You are advocating Russia, should Turkey do what Russia does, to engage a nation not involved in the current situation?

As for not giving a damn about Turkey the Soviet Union and Russia would disagree with you. Since Turkey can effectively nullify Russian actions in Ukraine, Turkey is very much a concern to Russia. Again you are using nationalistic fervor in place of common sense and military doctrine.

Saudi Arabia has actually refurbished its pipeline that runs from the Gulf to the Suez area in anticipation of Iran shutting down the Gulf. The interruption would not last long and the impact on neutral nations could very well swing those nations against Russia / Iran.

Your comment about Russia being to spread out also reinforces what I have been trying to convey that you and others ignore. They days of territorial conquest are done. Most military doctrines have occupation without annexation. Achieve the goal, return control and leave. Russia's and its intent on annexing the rebirth of the Soviet Union is not a valid doctrine in the 21st century.

If a war were to occur occupation of Russia would not be anywhere close to the top of the list. Just as with the US or China, the countries are to large to effectively control. Hence the foolishness in assuming that is the goal of a war with Russia.

As for your last comment - No - the west / EU / NATO do not want war with Russia, and that has been demonstrated time and again by those groups. A military doctrine based on misconceived notions towards the west / NATO / EU is self defeating for Russia. Russia is preparing for something that will not happen and are using the reactions of those groups in response to Russian actions as a basis.

In other words Russia started the mess by invading, the west / EU / NATO reacted with alarm, and now Russia is using that alarm as justification for further actions.

Russia put themselves into that position without anyone else's help.

Russian reaction based on Paranoia is exactly how wars start.