Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

Back to the thread Everyone in the UN security council was letting Russia know in no uncertain terms they knew those armed protesters were Russian troops. And basically told them they need to stop being a provocateur and start acting like a member of the security council and help bring peace and stability to the region. They informed then they are russian special forces that have taken over in fact Lithuanians made one of the strongest statements. There worried that there next i think.

Wookiep
Here's a link to the live Emergency U.N. meeting at 8pm EST.

Live UN Meeting Link

That hasn't been very productive, if I had to summarize it all in one word... Pointless.

Russia Loses Leverage with China on Gas Deal

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Russian President Vladimir Putin obviously thinks that preventing Ukraine from moving closer to the West is a strategic interest and one that is important enough to risk international condemnation. Seizing Crimea has led to negative international opinion, capital flight, deteriorating relations with Europe, and a potential enormous toll to the Russian economy. It has also threatened to permanently damage the commercial relationship Russia has with its largest energy customer – Western Europe.

That has clearly accelerated the deal that Russia is trying to finalize with China on natural gas. It may seem odd that the two countries have let a gas deal go undone for so long – they are some of the largest energy producers and consumers in the world, respectively, and are close neighbors. But with very few interconnections and a dispute over pricing, Russia hasn't been able to sell much natural gas to its neighbor. To get gas flowing into China, Russia will need to build a $22 billion pipeline – the Power of Siberia pipeline – that traverses Siberia and runs all the way to Vladivostok on the Pacific Coast. Along the way, the pipeline will have three interconnecting points on the Chinese border, allowing China to offload natural gas in a variety of places. Once completed in 2018, Gazprom could send 38 billion cubic meters per year to China, which is equivalent to about 24% of the total that Russia sells to Europe.

But Russia has lost leverage in the negotiations with China as it has become more eager to seal the deal on the prospect that Europe will increasingly shift away from Russian gas. Russia's Deputy Prime Minister appeared in China April 9 and made news by saying that the two nations are zeroing in on a deal. He said that he hoped a deal could be signed in May ahead of Putin's visit to Beijing.

Click link for remainder of article and for link to OP.

There has been an going discussion about Russia being able to replace its ost business in Europe with China. The problem is China's purchase would only amount to 24% of the total Russia sends to Europe.

The idea that China, being so large and populous, could absorb the lost business is not correct. Further, as we were discussing, Russian actions are going to have a serious economic toll while is going to affect a lot of the initiatives Putin was pushing. In order to speed up the deal with China, China has leverage on pricing and will most likely use that advantage, further reducing Russian income from gas exports.

With the latest issues in Ukraine, sanctions are again being expanded against the Russian government. We shall see what happens at the Security council meeting Russia requested.

ausername

Wookiep
Here's a link to the live Emergency U.N. meeting at 8pm EST.

Live UN Meeting Link

That hasn't been very productive, if I had to summarize it all in one word... Pointless.

True there still talking and Russia is not listening the UN knows Russia is doing this they make condemnations but in the end can do nothing other than plead with Russia. The only action i could see is through the general assembly moving troops as a protection. But there is UN observers in the area reporting back and they are telling the UN that its Russians causing the problem in eastern Ukraine so at the very least its setting the stage for the next step.

reply to post by dragonridr


Even the OCSE and other European entities Russia is a member of had condemned Russian actions. Russia has since withdrawn from some of those groups, accusing them of having an anti-Russian agenda's.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Russias going to be raped by the Chinese ill bet they get the gas at a low enough cost to resell it on the world market and make a killing. But realize this deal even if rushed is still years off they still need to build a pipeline and well frankly most of that technology doesnt exist in Russia so they need to find a way to get it or start building it. Which means that not only will it take years to build but they may have to spend longer creating factories.Just imagine whats going to happen to Russia when over 25 percent of their economy is based on exporting gas.

I think UN peacekeepers are what's needed at this point

This way Russia can't go to war with the UN for keeping the peace and calling them Nazis, Rothschild, and CIA

Russia is only flooding the country with more terrorists to further destabalise Ukraine

reply to post by TritonTaranis


I agree to an extent on peacekeepers. The issue there is which nations can be agreed on by all parties to provide them? Its become even more difficult being I don't think any "western" nation will be accepted by Russia and I doubt any nations Russia chooses will be accepted in the other direction.

Secondly I don't think Ukraine should be prohibited from dealing with internal affairs via UN peacekeeping. Ukraine is still a sovereign nation and has a right to protect that sovereignty, including actions against internal forces stirred up from elsewhere.

The wall we are up against and how its resolved is based on Russian actions. Will Putin stop while he is ahead and try to salvage what he has now or will he decide to close the door and go full throttle, not caring what anyone / the UN says?


********************

This is rich coming from Russia -

Ukraine crisis: Russia urges Kiev to avoid force in east

Had anti kremlin forces in Russia attempted the same feat, Russia would have no issues suppressing the movement, using force. To stir things up then demand Ukraine not use force is a joke.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Who's we? Russia has every right as the USA would if Canada were taken over by a Pro-kremlin government to interveine, k maybe not the right but at least it's highly understandable and i would expect people to consider how they would feel having Russian missile systems,/bases at THEIR doorstep
perspective..
I'm not expecting you to agree but it has to be said

all2human
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Who's we? Russia has every right as the USA would if Canada were taken over by a Pro-kremlin government to intervene, i would expect people to consider how they would feel having Russian missile systems,/bases at their doorstep
perspective

I see you guys keep reporting false information. The NMD was adapted to naval vessels when Obama scrapped the land based versions in Poland. Since Russias latest actions, thje land based system have been reintroduced to Poland and goes into operation in 2018. That is all Russia's doing.

Russia has stated time and again over the last few months, military movements / decisions inside their borders are no one elses concern. That same standard applies in reverse and its something Russia, and its supporters, should learn to accept because its not going anywhere any time soon.

Secondly, the manner in which Russia is representing itself to the world by its recent actions have hurt Russia more than it has helped. Everything Russia has done has resulted in the very actions Russia does not want - Former SSR's associating with the EU / NATO.

Third, There is no single country in the immediate area of Russia that can take them on militarily - Hence the need for the alliance.

Fourth - since you and others seem to ignore this fact let me bring it up - Those nations that directly border Russian have Russian missiles and Russian military equipment on their borders.

Russia does not get to bitch while doing the very action they are bitching about.

If we are to use your logic about what on whose door step, the US would be justified in invading Cuba, Venezuela and several other countries in the region.

Does anyone else see something wrong with this narrative. Small groups of terrorists who don't represent the majority of the local population demanding a referendum? Wouldn't logic dictate that they would lose that referendum? If they truly do represent a small portion of the population the most logical solution would be to give them their vote and defeat them at the polls. There is no need to bring in artillery and tanks if the narrative is correct.

Nor can you ignor the actions over the last two decades from a country I shall not name, if you didn't object then, why do you believe you have the right now? total assumption I know but i'm going with it

john452
Does anyone else see something wrong with this narrative. Small groups of terrorists who don't represent the majority of the local population demanding a referendum? Wouldn't logic dictate that they would lose that referendum? If they truly do represent a small portion of the population the most logical solution would be to give them their vote and defeat them at the polls. There is no need to bring in artillery and tanks if the narrative is correct.

Issues that have been raised for some time now, including the issues in Crimea.

The UN report on the vote in Crimea is due to be released this month and it contains accusations of a rigged election. As soon as the UN releases it will be posted here for people to read.

What's also concerning is the fact those groups are armed, and are suppressing anyone who is not pro Russian, the very claims made by Russia against Ukraine.

How is it possible for masked gunmen who are "pro-Russian" to seize government buildings and arrest officials while claiming to represent the bulk of the population in there areas.

the only coups I have see in Ukraine have been sponsored by Russia,.

all2human

edit on 13-4-2014 by all2human because: (no reason given)

Nor can you ignor the actions over the last two decades from a country I shall not name, if you didn't object then, why do you believe you have the right now? total assumption I know but i'm going for it.

edit on 13-4-2014 by all2human because: (no reason given)

What countries has this unnamed nation annexed over the last decade?
What "ethnicity" has this unnamed nation "protected" over the last decade?

Further more do you really want to play the history game with nations? If so, Russia is not going to come out smelling like roses.

reply to post by Xcathdra


The Maidan protesters seized buildings too. I strongly advocated not using military force against them too and will also do so in this situation. Once the shooting starts it can rage out of control. The truth will come out eventually of that I'm certain. The goal should be to make sure as few people as possible die before that happens and that the conflict doesn't spread into full civil war or even full scale war between nations.

john452
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

The Maidan protesters seized buildings too. I strongly advocated not using military force against them too and will also do so in this situation. Once the shooting starts it can rage out of control. The truth will come out eventually of that I'm certain. The goal should be to make sure as few people as possible die before that happens and that the conflict doesn't spread into full civil war or even full scale war between nations.

A large part of me agrees...

However, I also understand the need for action against groups who are not representing the Ukrainian people. As an example Crimea.

What the pro Russian side desperately tries to avoid is how the Crimean government came into existence. Masked armed non insignia "self defense forces" stormed Crimean government buildings and removed the elected Prime Minister. They then arbitrarily appointed a new "Prime Minister", who in turn pushed the vote.

So Russia / Pro Russia has absolutely no place in the moral high ground category as some try to make them out to be.

The Parliament in Kiev were elected by the people in 2012. They were not armed masked men with no insignias storming the government building and removing Yanukovych by force.

They held a vote, which met constitutional requirements, and impeached him.

Even Russian supporters cant get the story right on Yanukovych, since Yanukovych said he never fled while Russian media, including Putin, stated he had to flee or he would have been killed.

UN Security Council meeting ended without any resolutions to end the crisis. Ukraine stated they are not going to allow what happened in Crimea to occur in the East and South.

Kiev government to deploy troops in Ukraine's east in bid to restore order


Twitter update

#UNSC session has closed for today.4hours left to the end of ultimatum given to separatists in E. #Ukraine by govrn/ pic.twitter.com/mHGzTHL3sl

all2human
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Who's we? Russia has every right as the USA would if Canada were taken over by a Pro-kremlin government to interveine, k maybe not the right but at least it's highly understandable and i would expect people to consider how they would feel having Russian missile systems,/bases at THEIR doorstep
perspective..
I'm not expecting you to agree but it has to be said

edit on 13-4-2014 by all2human because: (no reason given)

Theres no right to invade a neighbor are you daft? Any way what missile systems are you talking about????? Look Ukraine was going to be an economic agreement for the EU see Europe has been trying to expand their influence they want to remain relevant so to speak. The EU was formed to keep Europe in the game as individual countries they would have become irrelevant in the global economy but link 25 nations together all using the same currency and they are an economic powerhouse. They didnt want Ukraine because of threatening Russia they wanted it to increase their economic viability. Look Europe gets access to resources and believe it or not tech industry. This is about money not security Russia didnt want to lose its puppet to the EU nothing more. As far as basses in Ukraine wouldnt have happened until Putin pulled this bone head maneuver now i can see them setting up NATO bases in Ukraine after its all said and done. But by no means is Ukraine militarily important unless someone wanted to attack the poorest areas of Russia. Poland is in a much better position to damage Russia.

Xcathdra
UN Security Council meeting ended without any resolutions to end the crisis. Ukraine stated they are not going to allow what happened in Crimea to occur in the East and South.

Kiev government to deploy troops in Ukraine's east in bid to restore order


Twitter update

#UNSC session has closed for today.4hours left to the end of ultimatum given to separatists in E. #Ukraine by govrn/ pic.twitter.com/mHGzTHL3sl

I watched the UN meeting and the members of the security council were basically giving Kiev permission to use force. If anything Kiev walked out of there realizing the UN considers them a sovereign nation and can do what is needed to protect that. Lithuania specifically mentioned the use of force as well as most of the others.The reason i mentioned Lithuania specifically however is they didnt play the normal political game there UN ambassador she was just blunt. She didnt do like the US or others saying well again we have troops with no isignia she flat out said they were Russian troops.

Deadline ran out 10 mins back. Woke up early, took a days leave from work, big day today, wanted to stay at home to cover the news.

So what do guys predict will happen now?