Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

ausername

RebelHart
I am a peace loving democrat but i'd sign up to fight Putin any day. Russia has been around the block long enough to know better. They are picking a fight with the rest of the world.Text Black

I think Putin's objectives are simple. He isn't seeking a war with the west, simply exploiting the opportunities that pathetically weak western leadership made available to him. I believe his primary goal is to completely eliminate all western influence from Ukraine, and leave behind a Ukraine that is fully aligned with Moscow.

He may not need to invade and occupy Ukraine to accomplish that primary objective, but he is prepared to do that if all covert efforts fail.

He knows better, what he can and can't get away with here.

if that is the case, why is he amassing troops along the Ukrainian border? I don't think they are there for the fun of it!

ausername

RebelHart
I am a peace loving democrat but i'd sign up to fight Putin any day. Russia has been around the block long enough to know better. They are picking a fight with the rest of the world.Text Black

I think Putin's objectives are simple. He isn't seeking a war with the west, simply exploiting the opportunities that pathetically weak western leadership made available to him. I believe his primary goal is to completely eliminate all western influence from Ukraine, and leave behind a Ukraine that is fully aligned with Moscow.

He may not need to invade and occupy Ukraine to accomplish that primary objective, but he is prepared to do that if all covert efforts fail.

He knows better, what he can and can't get away with here.

I agree with this except for the part about he knows what he can and cant get away with. He isnt realizing the long term consequences of his actions and i think the costs far outweigh the gains. Hes in big trouble and he doesnt have alot of options left for escape. Hes backing himself into a corner and the outcome wont be good for anyone.

reply to post by Wirral Bagpuss


Try reading the line I wrote in that post that begins with "He may not need to invade..."

He is prepared if...

Reading is fundamental.

dragonridr

ausername

RebelHart
I am a peace loving democrat but i'd sign up to fight Putin any day. Russia has been around the block long enough to know better. They are picking a fight with the rest of the world.Text Black

I think Putin's objectives are simple. He isn't seeking a war with the west, simply exploiting the opportunities that pathetically weak western leadership made available to him. I believe his primary goal is to completely eliminate all western influence from Ukraine, and leave behind a Ukraine that is fully aligned with Moscow.

He may not need to invade and occupy Ukraine to accomplish that primary objective, but he is prepared to do that if all covert efforts fail.

He knows better, what he can and can't get away with here.

I agree with this except for the part about he knows what he can and cant get away with. He isnt realizing the long term consequences of his actions and i think the costs far outweigh the gains. Hes in big trouble and he doesnt have alot of options left for escape. Hes backing himself into a corner and the outcome wont be good for anyone.

He has been very measured, calculating and tactical in every move made so far. If he wanted to invade and occupy Ukraine he would have done it already, in fact it would have been over with rather quickly. I think my assessment stands as valid here.

Don't make the mistake of underestimating this man.

reply to post by ausername

If he wanted to invade and occupy Ukraine he would have done it already, in fact it would have been over with rather quickly.

Well, technically they have...Crimea.

Because you have to remember it was part of Ukraine before Putin decided he wanted it back.

reply to post by tsurfer2000h


Crimea was the test. Also a strategic objective. If you are suggesting that a similar strategy is at play for the rest of Ukraine, you are correct, except that the goal is not to invade and occupy, but to covertly eliminate western influence from within. Backed up with a real threat of force and military intervention if those covert efforts fail.

The Russians would be satisfied with significant favorable change in the rest of Ukraine, as opposed to a war.

If there is a military confrontation between Russian and Ukrainian forces, all bets are off. Invasion becomes much more likely.

Again...

Just another opinion.

ausername
reply to post by tsurfer2000h

 

Crimea was the test. Also a strategic objective. If you are suggesting that a similar strategy is at play for the rest of Ukraine, you are correct, accept that the goal is not to invade and occupy, but to covertly eliminate western influence from within. Backed up with a real threat of force and military intervention if those covert efforts fail.

The Russians would be satisfied with significant favorable change in the rest of Ukraine, as opposed to a war.

If there is a military confrontation between Russian and Ukrainian forces, all bets are off. Invasion becomes much more likely.

Again...

Just another opinion.

i AGREE 100% with your assessment. He wants the Soviet Bloc back.

khimbar

ausername

khimbar

Gregor Peter ‏@L0gg0l · 1m
RUSSIAN TV JOURNALIST KILLED IN SLOVIANSK, UKRAINE

Doom on.

Interesting development if true, almost got lost in the slanted history lessons some members are droning on about... Yawn.

No one cares anymore about updates or the upcoming war. It's turned into the worst history class ever about the last one.

I agree, a lot of 'experts' in here but lets get back to the topic and current events in Ukraine.

this is from Kharkiv, 'tourists' from western Ukraine not welcome by people of Kharkiv

www.youtube.com...

another town in Donetsk Region, Makeevke, taken over by people who oppose the 'Government' in Kiev.
Protesting and raising the flag of People's Republic of Donetsk. They are playing Russian national anthem.

www.youtube.com...

People have spoken once again.

'Kiev's ATMs Running Out of Cash Amid Deadly Clashes: Opposition
As Kiev faced another day of bloody violence, opposition activists reported that the city's ATMs were running dry.'

www.nbcnews.com...

Time is running out for 'Government' in Kiev, shortage of money is becoming evident on daily basis.
Should we embrace for another Maidan in a next couple of weeks?

Here's a link to the live Emergency U.N. meeting at 8pm EST.

Live UN Meeting Link

demus
1. Crimea is important - probably more than we know so I don't understand "explain the invasion" question.
Invasion never happened. You already know what happened.
If you wish to call it invasion you can but it is clear that Putin for one reason or another had to have Crimea join Russian Federation.

Crimea is strategically important as long as they have an exit from the Black Sea. They had that, now they risk losing it.
Crimea was invaded, anyone who denies this has to be either delusional or on the Kremlin payroll. I cannot believe that any sane and intelligent person - even one supportive of Russia - can possibly deny that Crimea (as a part of Ukraine recognized under international agreements signed by Russia) was invaded.

demus
2. Economy?
All you said about economy is again true, except that the countries that are exporting/importing to and from Russia are not doing so because they like Russia or Russians but because of nice, sweet money.
Russia cannot find a new market overnight?
No country in the world can find new market for it's goods overnight.
I don't understand why you think Russia will "lose markets" when they are very important market themselves.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The very nature of the "New World Order" that everyone likes to think is some ancient conspiracy is nothing more than mutual alliance to prevent conflict.

Europe was founded on the principle that nations reliant on each other would be far less likely to ever go to war, and it has indeed prevented many conflicts. The conflicts we have seen since the second world war have generally been between nations where no such mutual cooperation existed.

Russia was convenient for the import of natural gas to Europe, sure, but it wasn't only done because of that need. It was also done to reduce the likelihood of war.

In theory, it would work, with a rational leader in office. Putin is not a rational leader.

People keep saying that Europe is reliant on Russian gas when it isn't. France uses Nuclear for up to 75% of it's energy, the UK only imports about 10% of our energy (although that is likely to increase soon due to decline of the North Sea), Germany is perhaps one of the most reliant, and they are now in deals with the US to import.

Russia also relies heavily on Gas for income. If Europe stops buying, the Russian economy takes a significant hit which will affect the entire Russian market.

demus
3. Hitler?
It's already getting old.
There are some similarities but overall, the situation is completely different.

First and most important, Russia do not target, based on racist laws, minorities in it's own country.
Completely the opposite of what the Hitler did first, don't you think?
So you and others should stop with the "Hitler rant", it's nothing like that.

edit on 13-4-2014 by demus because: limiting the awerness

This is actually pretty insulting. Putin isn't attacking minorities? I guess you haven't heard about the LGBT people being beaten in the streets, the club that was shot at, gassed and fire bombed more than once with police doing nothing, the teenagers abducted and raped on camera, the videos spread throughout the Russian social network with no action taken to catch those responsible...

Social commentators and historians have been comparing Hitler and Putin for several years, noting the consolidation of the Russian press under controlled Kremlin appointment, cracking down on immigrants, enacting homophobic laws, brutally oppressing any public opposition to the Kremlin, locking up people for their political opinions, the involvement of the Orthodox church in policy making, Putin's clear hunger for a "return to empire"...

If you cannot see these comparisons then I don't know what I could possibly say to make it any more clear. The suggestion that Russia is some kind of free and open society where people are free to be who they are without attack is, frankly, sickening.

'The self-imposed govt in Kiev is preparing provocations in Eastern Ukraine on the border with Russia in order to discredit the popular uprising, former Ukrainian interior minister said. The information was also confirmed by other sources in the ministry.
“According to our information, in eastern regions of Ukraine provocations are being planned near the border in order to discredit the military personnel of the Russian Federation,” Vitaly Zakharchenko said in Rostov on Don during a press conference with ousted President Victor Yanukovich.

He called on the security forces in Ukraine not to obey orders from Kiev, reminding them that such actions would be illegal, and condemned Kiev's coup-imposed leadership for giving such orders.

“From the legal point of view illegal orders are given out the illegitimately appointed Turchinov, Avakov, Nalivaychenko, Makhnitsky,” Zakharchenko said.'

rt.com...

demus

dragonridr
Well a dead line has been set they will use force if the Russian provocateurs (kiev accusation) dont vacate the building.This means he gave them until 0600 GMT about 10 and a half hours from now. So im sure one way or another this will be over by tomorrow. The only question becomes whats next?

www.reuters.com...

what will be over until tomorrow?

you must be dreaming...

nothing will be over by tomorrow.

it's only a start.

also, I would like to add a video, it's not an update but it's worth checking.

Great clip, sums up everything.

what do you guys think of this, Israel's stand on Ukraine? This is quite big in my opinion.

“We have been consulting closely on Ukraine not only with our partners and allies around the world," a senior U.S. official told Haaretz. "Obviously we are looking to the entire international community to condemn Russia’s actions and to support Ukraine, so we were surprised to see that Israel did not join the large majority of countries that voted to support Ukraine’s territorial integrity at the United Nations.”

A senior Israeli official said that Israel's absence from the United Nations vote was viewed around the world as an extremely irregular measure, a departure from a long-standing Israeli policy of voting with the United States in the UN. While the Americans viewed Israel's behavior as ungrateful, in light of Washington's unshakable support for Jerusalem in the UN, in the Kremlin and in the Russian media Israel's action was seen as an expression of support for Moscow, or at the very least a lack of opposition to the invasion of Ukraine.'

www.haaretz.com...

reply to post by cosmonova


It means that all those opposed to everything Israel says/does should look at this and perhaps stop thinking Russia/Putin are the saviors of the world! Or maybe Israel has no concern over it and doesn't want tensions with Russia since they back Iran. Israel has enough enemies as it is.

Wookiep
reply to post by cosmonova

 

It means that all those opposed to everything Israel says/does should look at this and perhaps stop thinking Russia/Putin are the saviors of the world!

Or maybe Israel has no concern over it and doesn't want tensions with Russia since they back Iran. Israel has enough enemies as it is.

you can downplay this all you want but judging by the comments from White House, there is a lot of unhappy and angry folks in there.

'The US official said that Washington is particularly angry with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman's failure to publically support the US position on the crisis.'

www.middleeastmonitor.com...


this would be great example of definition of backstabbing .

reply to post by cosmonova


I'm really not trying to downplay anything, this is not my intent. Israel really doesn't need more enemies, they are surrounded by them and Syria is a much more sensitive and bigger issue for them. Agitating Russia will only escalate the situation there in the eyes of Israel IMO. Israel might also be a little miffed that Obama and Kerry were unable to carry out their "limited strike" on Syria as well. Maybe the U.S. is overreacting a bit, but I don't think it will lead to serious torn relations between the two.

RT @StateOfUkraine "Right now #Russian TV and MFA are saying that #Russia will invade #Ukraine to stop violence. This confirms previous...

reply to post by cosmonova


Odd who said the state department is mad? I dont think they care what stance Israel takes and quite frankly keeping them out od it would be a priority since that would bring things into the equation that would only mire the issue. So who was this source making these claims? I dont think they exist because im sure Israel was told to stay out of the mess and thats in there best interest.