Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

reply to post by woodwardjnr


And now that Kiev has responded (quite rightly too) to these takeovers, it is only a matter of time until Moscow responds to "protect" the "Russians" living there, just like in Crimea.

Of course, Moscow denies any involvement, but they did that when 30,000 troops poured out of Sevastopol in full view of the world until they had achieved their objectives, when they suddenly confirm their troops are there and welcome Crimea into the Federation.

I give it a week before those troops on "exercise" start rolling over the border.

ufoorbhunter

Xcathdra


The allies complied.
The Russians did not with Stalin keeping almost all of E. Europe in addition to Kaliningrad.

The Allied losses were absolutely incomparable to the Soviet losses. Britain and America were sitting on the fence compared to the USSR, they were a side show that only created a real front when victory over Nazi Gerany was 100% guaranteed. They had no right to take land as compensation, the Soviets had every right.

The war inflicted on the west by Nazi forces was different to that in the east. In the east it was total war, the way the Nazis treated civilians and POWs was in a different class. The Soviet Union was effectively destroyed in areas of Nazi occupation.

British or US casualties were about 1 person for every 100 Soviets killed. You just can't compare the Allies post war response to German reparations when looking at this figure.

The Soviet Union was NOT destroyed. They took heavy casualties, no one disputes that. But nevertheless the Cold War that followed proved that Russia was just as bad as Nazi Germany in occupying Eastern Europe which it had no right to do. Sometimes I wonder how the world managed to survive the latter part of the 20th century without nuking itself. I doubt the same can be said for the 21st century.

Wirral Bagpuss

ufoorbhunter

Xcathdra


The allies complied.
The Russians did not with Stalin keeping almost all of E. Europe in addition to Kaliningrad.

The Allied losses were absolutely incomparable to the Soviet losses. Britain and America were sitting on the fence compared to the USSR, they were a side show that only created a real front when victory over Nazi Gerany was 100% guaranteed. They had no right to take land as compensation, the Soviets had every right.

The war inflicted on the west by Nazi forces was different to that in the east. In the east it was total war, the way the Nazis treated civilians and POWs was in a different class. The Soviet Union was effectively destroyed in areas of Nazi occupation.

British or US casualties were about 1 person for every 100 Soviets killed. You just can't compare the Allies post war response to German reparations when looking at this figure.

The Soviet Union was NOT destroyed. They took heavy casualties, no one disputes that. But nevertheless the Cold War that followed proved that Russia was just as bad as Nazi Germany in occupying Eastern Europe which it had no right to do. Sometimes I wonder how the world managed to survive the latter part of the 20th century without nuking itself. I doubt the same can be said for the 21st century.

To add another reason -
During WWII the Soviet Union / Russia was not a signatory to the Hague convention nor the Geneva Protocols, both of which set standards on how pow's are treated.

Because the USSR was not a signatory, Hitler took the position that the "rules" for POW's did not apply between Germany and the USSR. That played a part in why Russian casualties were high.

Live nowUkraine crisis: Reports and analysis

17:38: On Friday, the US imposed sanctions on Crimea-based gas company, Chernomorneftegaz, effectively putting it off limits to Russia's state-controlled Gazprom, which was expected to bid for a stake in the company. It, along with penalties on six Crimean separatists and a former Ukrainian official, is the third round of US sanctions since the Ukraine crisis erupted.

17:32: Republican Senator John McCain, appearing on CBS, said the Obama administration's failure to punish Russia over Crimea has emboldened President Putin. He repeated calls for tougher sanctions and for giving Ukrainians light weapons, to defend themselves.

17:28: On Friday, Nato released a factsheet (pdf) attempting to rebut a long list of Russian claims about the organisation and Ukraine.

The interesting one -

17:20: More than 10,000 people have turned out in Moscow for an anti-Kremlin rally denouncing Russian state TV news coverage, particularly of the Ukraine crisis. State television has portrayed Ukraine's new government as a "fascist junta" under US control, determined to oppress Russian speakers. Some of the participants carried Ukrainian flags.

Gregor Peter ‏@L0gg0l · 1m
RUSSIAN TV JOURNALIST KILLED IN SLOVIANSK, UKRAINE

Doom on.

Wirral Bagpuss

The Soviet Union was NOT destroyed. They took heavy casualties, no one disputes that. But nevertheless the Cold War that followed proved that Russia was just as bad as Nazi Germany in occupying Eastern Europe which it had no right to do.

I said the Soviet Union was destroyed in areas of Nazi occupation. It was razed to the ground by the Nazis.

If you are looking for reasoning behind the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe then the destruction of the USSR was the reason. The capitalist nations tried and tried again to destroy the USSR and its radical new way of life so scary to the rulers in the old world.

The USSR in 1945 had every reason to want to keep USA, British, Indian (Britsh Empire),German, French, Chinese, Japanese, Serbian, Australians, Greeek, Romanian, Hungarian, Czechoslovakian, Canadian armies as far from the border as possible. Countries (yes all of them) that within the previous 30 years invaded the USSR itself with a view of killing off Communism

reply to post by stumason

The Germans unleashed total brutality against the Russians in WWII. In the first stage on the invasion, Germans left the captured Soviet soldiers to die of starvation and exposure by the millions.
en.wikipedia.org...
"The German forces captured over three million Soviet POWs in 1941,[14] who were not granted the protection stipulated in the Geneva Conventions.[31] Most of them never returned alive.[32] Germany deliberately starved the prisoners to death as part of its "Hunger Plan", i.e., the program to reduce the Eastern European population.["
Wherever the Germans went there was total destruction.

ufoorbhunter

Xcathdra


The allies complied.
The Russians did not with Stalin keeping almost all of E. Europe in addition to Kaliningrad.

The Allied losses were absolutely incomparable to the Soviet losses. Britain and America were sitting on the fence compared to the USSR, they were a side show that only created a real front when victory over Nazi Gerany was 100% guaranteed. They had no right to take land as compensation, the Soviets had every right.

The war inflicted on the west by Nazi forces was different to that in the east. In the east it was total war, the way the Nazis treated civilians and POWs was in a different class. The Soviet Union was effectively destroyed in areas of Nazi occupation.

British or US casualties were about 1 person for every 100 Soviets killed. You just can't compare the Allies post war response to German reparations when looking at this figure.

There were two reasons for high Russian losses. One Stalin threw bodies at the Germans often times having 1 rifle for 5 or more people. He knew they were going to die but he knew it was using ammunition.It was so bad they would put people they grabbed off the street move them to the front line and give them a choice. Either be shot by the Russians or advance and take the german line if they turned around to run the Russians shot them.The other reason is Germans fought to the end because they knew they would be executed if captured. Means they figure if there going to die might as well take as many Russians with them as they can. The only reason Russian casualties was so high was Stalin himself whos reputation preceded him.

khimbar

Gregor Peter ‏@L0gg0l · 1m
RUSSIAN TV JOURNALIST KILLED IN SLOVIANSK, UKRAINE

Doom on.

Interesting development if true, almost got lost in the slanted history lessons some members are droning on about... Yawn.

stumason
reply to post by woodwardjnr

 

And now that Kiev has responded (quite rightly too) to these takeovers, it is only a matter of time until Moscow responds to "protect" the "Russians" living there, just like in Crimea.

Of course, Moscow denies any involvement, but they did that when 30,000 troops poured out of Sevastopol in full view of the world until they had achieved their objectives, when they suddenly confirm their troops are there and welcome Crimea into the Federation.

I give it a week before those troops on "exercise" start rolling over the border.

Im not convinced Putin is brave enough to make this move. He wants to i know he does but he also knows this is likely to trigger a response from NATO who he needs to keep off the chessboard if hes going to make it out of this. See even Putin knows hes no match for NATO he might be crazy but hes not stupid. The only question becomes does Putin believe that he could take the rest of Ukraine without a response from NATO. That really is the only question i dont think he does.

reply to post by dragonridr


I would agree that Stalin and Commie ways of fighting war was very "cannon fodder" logic. 10M Russian soldiers died in the war fighting. However, 20M Russian civilians died during the war. Mostly due to German infused stravation policies in the occupied areas. When on retreat, German burned everything and that resulted in horrendous environment related destruction of the human beings. 1 Million died in the Seige of Lenningrad alone.

IT IS PURELY EVIL, BEYOND EVIL TO EVEN SUPPORT OR SHIELD THE GERMAN DEEDS AGAINST HUMAN BEINGS IN WWII

ONLY A VERY WRETCHED DISEASED CURSED SOUL WOULD DEVELOP SUCH VIEWS

victor7
reply to post by dragonridr

 

I would agree that Stalin and Commie ways of fighting war was very "cannon fodder" logic. 10M Russian soldiers died in the war fighting. However, 20M Russian civilians died during the war. Mostly due to German infused stravation policies in the occupied areas. When on retreat, German burned everything and that resulted in horrendous environment related destruction of the human beings. 1 Million died in the Seige of Lenningrad alone.

IT IS PURELY EVIL, BEYOND EVIL TO EVEN SUPPORT OR SHIELD THE GERMAN DEEDS AGAINST HUMAN BEINGS IN WWII

ONLY A VERY WRETCHED DISEASED CURSED SOUL WOULD DEVELOP SUCH VIEWS

The Germans caused alot of devastation and death but part of that destruction was caused by Stalins policies for example the lack of foodwas caused by hes scorched earth policy. He didnt care if the people starved as long as the germans couldnt use the land. As was shown in after the war Stalin had little value for human life. Causing the Russian people to pay far more in human life than was necessary.The reason the other allies didnt have as heavy casualties is simple they tried to preserve life. As Far as Hitler he was evil bound and determined to conquer in the name of Germany. Oddly the similarities between Germany and Russia is truly astounding. Like Hitler Putin took office to an economy in ruins and promoted Nationality and superiority to uplift the Germans. Putin is playing this same dangerous game with the Russians hes been in control since 2000. He uses his power and influence to destroy opposition and any thought of democracy. He is KGB has always been KGB and will do anything he has to in order to resurrect what he believes was the Russian empire (this is Hitler as well).

The only thing diffrent now is Germany could be self sufficient Russia doesnt have that luxury.So Russia would destroy its self long before its capable of taking on the world.

they almost bombed Assad because he was "using force against his own people", I wonder what they're going to do with Ukraine.

of course, protesters in Syria were defenseless democrats while protesters in Ukraine are blood thirsty Russian provocateurs and traitors so don't bother to mention it.

ausername

khimbar

Gregor Peter ‏@L0gg0l · 1m
RUSSIAN TV JOURNALIST KILLED IN SLOVIANSK, UKRAINE

Doom on.

Interesting development if true, almost got lost in the slanted history lessons some members are droning on about... Yawn.

No one cares anymore about updates or the upcoming war. It's turned into the worst history class ever about the last one.

Well a dead line has been set they will use force if the Russian provocateurs (kiev accusation) dont vacate the building.This means he gave them until 0600 GMT about 10 and a half hours from now. So im sure one way or another this will be over by tomorrow. The only question becomes whats next?

www.reuters.com...

I am a peace loving democrat but i'd sign up to fight Putin any day. Russia has been around the block long enough to know better. They are picking a fight with the rest of the world.Text Black

dragonridr
Well a dead line has been set they will use force if the Russian provocateurs (kiev accusation) dont vacate the building.This means he gave them until 0600 GMT about 10 and a half hours from now. So im sure one way or another this will be over by tomorrow. The only question becomes whats next?

www.reuters.com...

what will be over until tomorrow?

you must be dreaming...

nothing will be over by tomorrow.

it's only a start.

also, I would like to add a video, it's not an update but it's worth checking.

RebelHart
I am a peace loving democrat but i'd sign up to fight Putin any day. Russia has been around the block long enough to know better. They are picking a fight with the rest of the world.Text Black

by "rest of the world" you mean USA + NATO?

RebelHart
I am a peace loving democrat but i'd sign up to fight Putin any day. Russia has been around the block long enough to know better. They are picking a fight with the rest of the world.Text Black

I think Putin's objectives are simple. He isn't seeking a war with the west, simply exploiting the opportunities that pathetically weak western leadership made available to him. I believe his primary goal is to completely eliminate all western influence from Ukraine, and leave behind a Ukraine that is fully aligned with Moscow.

He may not need to invade and occupy Ukraine to accomplish that primary objective, but he is prepared to do that if all covert efforts fail.

He knows better, what he can and can't get away with here.

RebelHart
I am a peace loving democrat but i'd sign up to fight Putin any day. Russia has been around the block long enough to know better. They are picking a fight with the rest of the world.Text Black

Rambo!