Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

Russia not clinging to G8 if West does not want it – Russian FM

Russia is not clinging to the G8 format, as all major world problems can be discussed at other international venues such as G20, Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has said.

“The G8 is an informal club, no one gives out membership cards and no one can expel members,” Lavrov told a media conference at the Hague. “If our Western partners believe that this format has exhausted itself, let it be. We are not clinging to it.”

reply to post by dragonridr

International Law?
oh, the bad Putin is violating the international law...
lucky for us he is the only "bad guy"...

DJW001

Sadly, so many posters on this thread sound like the naive Americans who thought the Afghans and Iraqis would greet them as liberators.

But that was the sound of the drum at the time, wasn't it? That everything was shiny, pristine clean and for all the right reasons. It's not like at the time people were starting to make the right questions like "where are the WMD's?" or "so, what was the involvement of these countries in 9/11?"...

My sarcasm is not directed at you. It's just that looking back, it's plain obvious what happened, and how things were manipulated. The second the past excuses were invalid or forgotten about, it all became about democratic values and liberation.

Still, people with rags as uniforms, and old soviet equipment, were enough to make a mockery of the "Mission Accomplished" banner. Let's not divert our minds into the scary thought of what would happen if they had to face a military force with equal training and brand new equipment...

Let's resume this discussion when the Black Sea Fleet is sinking and Crimeans rioting in the streets.

I never stated that the Russians wouldn't be defeated. Nor did I ever state that they wouldn't suffer casualties. My points are actually aimed at the opposite side of the spectrum: nobody knows. One of the mistakes most commonly done across the whole West is taking things for granted. The whole West assumes that a World War could never happen again, or that it will win any military confrontation, and that type of view, besides being completely wrong, is actually very dangerous.

reply to post by GarrusVasNormandy


I agree with you completely on that point. I have been trying to get the Putin worshipers to wake up. If they knew anything about American foreign policy doctrine for the past seventy years, they would know that 'encirclement and containment' is not an accusation, it is stated policy. They would also know that the United States will not shy from using military force if this containment is breached. Putin has made a major strategic blunder. He was able to seize part of Georgia because the lines of communication would not have been favorable for a NATO campaign. Crimea, however, is ideal for the United States' preferred weapon of war: the Carrier Group. Putin has provided the perfect field of battle for a war of NATO's choice. The terrain favors them. This is where they will draw the line.

Putin made the same mistake as Dick Cheney and the Neo-Cons: he believed his own propaganda. He thought that because the White House wisely avoided committing combat troops to the various uprisings in the Islamic world, the President was weak. Putin thinks that the United States is an autarchy like Russia. He does not understand that the President cannot act without the authorization of Congress, and they will not authorize something unless it pleases their constituents. Already the angry old men are beating the war drum. Soon there will be an incident-- real or manufactured-- that will kindle the flame in the general public. Because of the tactical situation, the US can engage militarily without the need for 'boots on the ground.' It will be the perfect storm.

reply to post by DJW001


While I do feel sorry for the angry old men who are beating on their war drums. I would wonder if the rest of their constituents would be as eager for war. Personally having known a lot of vets who have fought in wars from WW2 to the Gulf I would even wonder about support from the old men and would also wonder why you believe old men are angry. Most old men I know have a family, grand kids and are very content.

Also the black sea being good for carrier groups to operate in, oh my. Yes an enclosed area with only one small exist and close to mainland Russia's SSM is probably the best place in the world to put the carrier fleet. I hope you are leading the charge in this glorious victory.

john452
reply to post by DJW001

 

While I do feel sorry for the angry old men who are beating on their war drums. I would wonder if the rest of their constituents would be as eager for war. Personally having known a lot of vets who have fought in wars from WW2 to the Gulf I would even wonder about support from the old men and would also wonder why you believe old men are angry. Most old men I know have a family, grand kids and are very content.

edit on 24-3-2014 by john452 because: (no reason given)

I was referring to a political faction here that includes figures like John McCaine. They have a John Wayne shoot them all and let God sort them out mentality.

DJW001
reply to post by GarrusVasNormandy

 

I agree with you completely on that point. I have been trying to get the Putin worshipers to wake up. If they knew anything about American foreign policy doctrine for the past seventy years, they would know that 'encirclement and containment' is not an accusation, it is stated policy. They would also know that the United States will not shy from using military force if this containment is breached. Putin has made a major strategic blunder. He was able to seize part of Georgia because the lines of communication would not have been favorable for a NATO campaign. Crimea, however, is ideal for the United States' preferred weapon of war: the Carrier Group. Putin has provided the perfect field of battle for a war of NATO's choice. The terrain favors them. This is where they will draw the line.

Putin made the same mistake as Dick Cheney and the Neo-Cons: he believed his own propaganda. He thought that because the White House wisely avoided committing combat troops to the various uprisings in the Islamic world, the President was weak. Putin thinks that the United States is an autarchy like Russia. He does not understand that the President cannot act without the authorization of Congress, and they will not authorize something unless it pleases their constituents. Already the angry old men are beating the war drum. Soon there will be an incident-- real or manufactured-- that will kindle the flame in the general public. Because of the tactical situation, the US can engage militarily without the need for 'boots on the ground.' It will be the perfect storm.

Your right If Nato wanted to take out Russia this is the opportunity given to them os a silver platter. Couldnt ask for a better area for conflict russian navy bottled up and easy targets. Theres air base in Lithuania, 3 in Turkey, 2 in Poland,1 in cypress and ce a us aircraft carrier they literally have the Black sea surrounded not to mention support from greece if needed. Then there's whats called Dobs which is small defensive units consisting of about 20 aircraft all over the area. They could easily take command of the skies over Ukraine and we all know NATO generals love to control the air. So far NATO has not seen Russian actions as a direct threat to its allies (and lets hope they dont generals think in terms of cost vs outcome) although germany and Poland appears to be getting worried. As far as Obama being weak hes treading cautiously because a wrong move there is no coming back. If we end up in direct confrontation with Russia its to late there wont be negotiating they will only be looking at disabling the threat quickly.

reply to post by dragonridr

Your right If Nato wanted to take out Russia this is the opportunity given to them os a silver platter. Couldnt ask for a better area for conflict russian navy bottled up and easy targets. Theres air base in Lithuania, 3 in Turkey, 2 in Poland,1 in cypress and ce a us aircraft carrier they literally have the Black sea surrounded not to mention support from greece if needed. Then there's whats called Dobs which is small defensive units consisting of about 20 aircraft all over the area. They could easily take command of the skies over Ukraine and we all know NATO generals love to control the air.

Perhaps you need to look at what Russia has instead of being taken in by your Government spoon feeding it's citizens all of this crap about how good you are.

Russia would love an air war. It has a lot of surface to air missiles that they would love to try out. IN fact they would love to just get rid of the old S-300 stuff before letting loose with the S-400. Then there is the Russian Air Force to consider.

Well, you are in good company of people that have decided Russia would be a push over. Napoleon, Hitler, just to mention two.

I hope that NATO Leaders do not have your limited understanding of the real situation. It is like a bunch of high school cheer leaders cheering for a team that has not won a game since WW2.

P

reply to post by dragonridr

Your right If Nato wanted to take out Russia this is the opportunity given to them os a silver platter. Couldnt ask for a better area for conflict russian navy bottled up and easy targets. Theres air base in Lithuania, 3 in Turkey, 2 in Poland,1 in cypress and ce a us aircraft carrier they literally have the Black sea surrounded not to mention support from greece if needed. Then there's whats called Dobs which is small defensive units consisting of about 20 aircraft all over the area. They could easily take command of the skies over Ukraine and we all know NATO generals love to control the air. So far NATO has not seen Russian actions as a direct threat to its allies (and lets hope they dont generals think in terms of cost vs outcome) although germany and Poland appears to be getting worried. As far as Obama being weak hes treading cautiously because a wrong move there is no coming back. If we end up in direct confrontation with Russia its to late there wont be negotiating they will only be looking at disabling the threat quickly.

Calm down; NATO has no interest in taking Russia out. They have been very indulgent in allowing Russia to maintain a 'sphere of influence.' The problem is that Putin could not accept a ring of neutral states as a buffer; he wanted direct control of his satellites. Once the Russian garrisons in Crimea have surrendered and a new referendum held to declare its independence from both Ukraine and Russia, business can return to normal. Of course, the new Independent Republic of Crimea will have to renegotiate its contracts with Russia for the use of its ports....

reply to post by pheonix358

Russia would love an air war.

Too bad its going to be a naval war. Russia has never won a naval engagement. (Prove me wrong, I'm genuinely interested in broadening my knowledge of Russian history.)

DJW001
reply to post by pheonix358

 

Russia would love an air war.

Too bad its going to be a naval war. Russia has never won a naval engagement. (Prove me wrong, I'm genuinely interested in broadening my knowledge of Russian history.)

DO some research! Please! Just try google "Russian Naval Victories". There have been one or two.

The US Navy would never bring its Carrier Task Forces in to attack range of Russia. Russia has ballistic missiles that no power on earth has an answer to. They have ship to ship and ground to ship missiles that would kill a Battle Group if it was silly enough to enter the region.

It does not matter how good you anti missile defenses are, fire enough missiles and some will get through. The Ballistic Missiles come straight down ......... goodbye Carrier!

Being supportive of your military is a laudable quality, believing that they are invincible ... well ... that is usually the stance left for the peasants of North Korea.

P

pheonix358
reply to post by dragonridr

 

Your right If Nato wanted to take out Russia this is the opportunity given to them os a silver platter. Couldnt ask for a better area for conflict russian navy bottled up and easy targets. Theres air base in Lithuania, 3 in Turkey, 2 in Poland,1 in cypress and ce a us aircraft carrier they literally have the Black sea surrounded not to mention support from greece if needed. Then there's whats called Dobs which is small defensive units consisting of about 20 aircraft all over the area. They could easily take command of the skies over Ukraine and we all know NATO generals love to control the air.

Perhaps you need to look at what Russia has instead of being taken in by your Government spoon feeding it's citizens all of this crap about how good you are.

Russia would love an air war. It has a lot of surface to air missiles that they would love to try out. IN fact they would love to just get rid of the old S-300 stuff before letting loose with the S-400. Then there is the Russian Air Force to consider.

Well, you are in good company of people that have decided Russia would be a push over. Napoleon, Hitler, just to mention two.

I hope that NATO Leaders do not have your limited understanding of the real situation. It is like a bunch of high school cheer leaders cheering for a team that has not won a game since WW2.

P

You mean the SU 400 where russia only fielded 10 batteries out of the planned 55. Or the fact they light up like a christmas tree when you turn them on the radar system was salvaged from the S300 big bird which has already been beat.So it has zero chanve of detecting stealth. You send them in make a squawk so they go to active scanning and there done over in seconds.There only chance for survival is to put out a net and they just dont have enough.

dragonridr

pheonix358
reply to post by dragonridr

 

Your right If Nato wanted to take out Russia this is the opportunity given to them os a silver platter. Couldnt ask for a better area for conflict russian navy bottled up and easy targets. Theres air base in Lithuania, 3 in Turkey, 2 in Poland,1 in cypress and ce a us aircraft carrier they literally have the Black sea surrounded not to mention support from greece if needed. Then there's whats called Dobs which is small defensive units consisting of about 20 aircraft all over the area. They could easily take command of the skies over Ukraine and we all know NATO generals love to control the air.

Perhaps you need to look at what Russia has instead of being taken in by your Government spoon feeding it's citizens all of this crap about how good you are.

Russia would love an air war. It has a lot of surface to air missiles that they would love to try out. IN fact they would love to just get rid of the old S-300 stuff before letting loose with the S-400. Then there is the Russian Air Force to consider.

Well, you are in good company of people that have decided Russia would be a push over. Napoleon, Hitler, just to mention two.

I hope that NATO Leaders do not have your limited understanding of the real situation. It is like a bunch of high school cheer leaders cheering for a team that has not won a game since WW2.

P

You mean the SU 400 where russia only fielded 10 batteries out of the planned 55. Or the fact they light up like a christmas tree when you turn them on the radar system was salvaged from the S300 big bird which has already been beat.So it has zero chanve of detecting stealth. You send them in make a squawk so they go to active scanning and there done over in seconds.There only chance for survival is to put out a net and they just dont have enough. see missile defense not only involves how good the missile is but on how well its integrated with its radar system. And thats always been Russias downfall there computer tech is inferior so for example US has taken steps with patriots to alternate signals Russia has not.

reply to post by pheonix358


You live in a la-la land.US is minimum 20 years ahead from Russia or China in military technology.US will defeat Russia in one week in conventional war, but US cannot occupy Russia and no one can.

reply to post by pheonix358

"Russian Naval Victories". There have been one or two.

One or two in over a thousand years of history? Can you name one?

The US will not do anything about Crimea.

NATO will not do anything about Crimea.

The game is over.

As quickly as it was in Georgia.

reply to post by DJW001


I told you how to get that information. You left that out of the quoted text. Typical!

Why don't you list a US Naval victory post WW2.

P

poet1b

The US will not do anything about Crimea.

NATO will not do anything about Crimea.

The game is over.

As quickly as it was in Georgia.

Thank you for your vote of confidence. If I were Putin, I'd really start to worry now.