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Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

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posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 05:18 AM
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Wookiep

hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Wookiep
reply to post by hopenotfeariswhatweneed
 


Um, well first I said Obama and company. Second, the U.S. has always had a huge geopolitical influence since the creation of NATO and a huge influence with decisions concerning NATO from day 1. C'mon.
edit on 17-3-2014 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)




influence yes...but obama being week does that make NATO weak by association ?


Not necessarily, but so far the only NATO country who has really called for any military stance is Poland. You don't think that if Obama said "ok let's roll" the rest wouldn't? I think you would be wrong if you said no.



Anybody who thinks Russia is going to start moving into EU member states, is frankly, out of touch with reality.

NATO presence in NATO member states is purely token show of force. Belaruse also requested Russia patrol their borders.

Simply penile waving is all they can do. In reality nothing more will come of it except burnt aviation fuel and tax money.
edit on 17-3-2014 by shappy because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 05:19 AM
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Lets get it started... war can be a good thing sometimes..
edit on 17-3-2014 by textbox because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 05:25 AM
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reply to post by shappy
 


I'm not talking about NATO countries. I'm talking about Ukraine, guaranteed protection under the NPT.


Before voting on accession, Ukraine demanded from Russia, the USA, France and the United Kingdom a written statement that these powers undertook to extend the security guarantees to Ukraine.


Furthermore -


Russia, the UK and the USA undertake to respect Ukraine's borders in accordance with the principles of the 1975 CSCE Final Act, to abstain from the use or threat of force against Ukraine, to support Ukraine where an attempt is made to place pressure on it by economic coercion, and to bring any incident of aggression by a nuclear power before the UN Security Council.


Source

This is easily a case where Russia would be attempting (use of threat or force) against Ukraine, regardless of whether they signed the agreement to abstain. If they invade Ukraine, they break the treaty, the U.S. (and U.K. and France) has to intervene. Remember, we are not talking about Crimea.
edit on 17-3-2014 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 05:27 AM
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Foxtrot7x
@shappy - why don't you go tell poland that. I'm sure they are happily sleeping and not wary of the russia.


You honestly think Russia is interested in invading Poland or Lithuania? Don't be ridiculous.

All it is is over reacting window dressing to instill fear to give credence to the cause against Russia.

Just because you knee-jerk react and think stupid things, doesn't mean a leader of one of the most powerful countries on the planet will.

Please, stop overhyping and overreacting. Same for EU (and NATO) member states. They are just fanning flames for attention by fear mongering.

Good thing I live in a Neutral country because I will not aid any of NATO members and EU members in their little fight in any way shape or form.



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 05:28 AM
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Wookiep
reply to post by shappy
 


I'm not talking about NATO countries. I'm talking about Ukraine, guaranteed protection under the NPT.


Before voting on accession, Ukraine demanded from Russia, the USA, France and the United Kingdom a written statement that these powers undertook to extend the security guarantees to Ukraine.


Furthermore -


Russia, the UK and the USA undertake to respect Ukraine's borders in accordance with the principles of the 1975 CSCE Final Act, to abstain from the use or threat of force against Ukraine, to support Ukraine where an attempt is made to place pressure on it by economic coercion, and to bring any incident of aggression by a nuclear power before the UN Security Council.


Source

This is easily a case where Russia would be attempting (use of threat or force) against Ukraine, regardless of whether they signed the agreement to abstain. If they invade Ukraine, they break the treaty, the U.S. (and U.K.) has to intervene. Remember, we are not talking about Crimea.
edit on 17-3-2014 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)



So far I have not seen the words NATO in those quotes, care to highlight it for me?

So far this thread is all about "why isn't NATO defending Ukraine" themes, well, because, they cannot and should not.



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 05:30 AM
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reply to post by shappy
 


Edit - Wait, care to highlight what? Are you saying the U.K. U.S., France and Poland aren't a part of NATO? Do you really think the other NATO members would just sit back if those major players acted? Really? Stop playing semantics, I see what you're babbling on about now.

They will if the U.K., U.S, and Poland are involved. Again perhaps not all NATO nations would respond militarily, but If called upon they will act in some fashion. So far the U.S. and U.K. haven't had the balls, which is precisely the problem.
edit on 17-3-2014 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-3-2014 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 05:31 AM
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You honestly think if russia moves into easter Ukraine Poland won't get involved ? You must be dreaming . Did you forget the soviet invasion of poland , m sure poland didn't. They are already wary and have called for military action . lol thats just with crimea where russia might have a legal cause. Whay do you think will happen when russia moves further into Ukraine ? Please do answer me .



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 05:37 AM
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When poland gets involved , US will along with most if not all NATO members. And btw here's an interesting bit 'most EU members are also NATO members' .



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 05:43 AM
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Foxtrot7x
When poland gets involved , US will along with most if not all NATO members. And btw here's an interesting bit 'most EU members are also NATO members' .


Which they will not get involved.



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 05:43 AM
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Foxtrot7x
You honestly think if russia moves into easter Ukraine Poland won't get involved ? You must be dreaming . Did you forget the soviet invasion of poland , m sure poland didn't. They are already wary and have called for military action . lol thats just with crimea where russia might have a legal cause. Whay do you think will happen when russia moves further into Ukraine ? Please do answer me .


Poland was not an EU member state nor in NATO when the Soviet Union invaded. Please, come back to reality and use facts not fiction.



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 05:44 AM
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Wookiep
reply to post by shappy
 


Edit - Wait, care to highlight what? Are you saying the U.K. U.S., France and Poland aren't a part of NATO? Do you really think the other NATO members would just sit back if those major players acted? Really? Stop playing semantics, I see what you're babbling on about now.

They will if the U.K., U.S, and Poland are involved. Again perhaps not all NATO nations would respond militarily, but If called upon they will act in some fashion. So far the U.S. and U.K. haven't had the balls, which is precisely the problem.
edit on 17-3-2014 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-3-2014 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)


Just because a member of NATO signs a treaty / agreement, does not mean NATO did. Please, use facts and common sense, not fiction.



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 05:47 AM
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reply to post by shappy
 


Oh yeah, my bad, just the U.S. France and the U.K. signed it. Play semantics all you want, it doesn't change the fact that NATO will be involved regardless if any of them choose to act. Your witty responses prove to be nothing more than arguing over nothing.



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 05:48 AM
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Wookiep
reply to post by shappy
 


Oh yeah, my bad, just the U.S. France and the U.K. signed it. Play semantics all you want, it doesn't change the fact that NATO will be involved regardless if any of them choose to act. Your witty responses prove to be nothing more than arguing over nothing.


Only if UK and France are attacked, you honestly think Russia will invade France and UK now? Please.

Semantics may not be important to you but they are to NATO, that is why they are not getting involved, because they cannot and should not.

You're soo eager for a fight, want me to download a PDF application form and mail it to you?
edit on 17-3-2014 by shappy because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 05:51 AM
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reply to post by shappy
 


No, UKRAINE. How about you learn to read? Did you see the part about which countries signed the NPT concerning Ukraine? Either pay attention or stop trolling. If you really can't pay attention then I will not continue this discussion with you as it seems you are either intentionally steering away from the convo at hand, or just genuinely have no grasp on how to follow along.
edit on 17-3-2014 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 05:53 AM
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Here you all go. Show us how it is done. Please show Russia and Putin his mistakes. Go defend Ukraine.

UK Army Application

www.army.mod.uk...
www.army.mod.uk...

US Army Application

www.goarmy.com...

You can also apply to Ukraine, I am sure they will take you.


Go do something about it, show us on this forum how wrong , fat, lazy we all are and you righteous you are
edit on 17-3-2014 by shappy because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 05:55 AM
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reply to post by shappy
 





Semantics may not be important to you but they are to NATO, that is why they are not getting involved, because they cannot and should not.


Right, and you seem to think that the U.K. U.S., France and Poland are either not a part of NATO, or not in the interest of the rest of NATO to act along side with. I'll bet you NATO disagrees with you.



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 05:56 AM
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Wookiep
reply to post by shappy
 





Semantics may not be important to you but they are to NATO, that is why they are not getting involved, because they cannot and should not.


Right, and you seem to think that the U.K. U.S., France and Poland are either not a part of NATO, or not in the interest of the rest of NATO to act along side with. I'll bet you NATO disagrees with you.



Have UK, US, France or Poland been invaded yet? Did I miss the news?



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 06:00 AM
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Looool so if poland was not a eu member then what has that got to do with the fact that they are still wary of russia with good reason. Six million polish citizens died . They will act this time.
Again you are playing semantics , what do you mean by 'they will not get involved' ? If poland does US will UK should, turkey will and others US allies will along with all those who are wary of russia. Pray tell why sweden wants in with NATO ? Moldova is already concerned ? This is bigger than just crimea , russian move into mainland Ukraine will have others involved . keep denying it . whatever keeps you asleep at night.
We don't want war but if it comes to it 'choose the lesser evil' .



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 06:01 AM
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Foxtrot7x
Looool so if poland was not a eu member then what has that got to do with the fact that they are still wary of russia with good reason. Six million polish citizens died . They will act this time.
Again you are playing semantics , what do you mean by 'they will not get involved' ? If poland does US will UK should, turkey will and others US allies will along with all those who are wary of russia. Pray tell why sweden wants in with NATO ? Moldova is already concerned ? This is bigger than just crimea , russian move into mainland Ukraine will have others involved . keep denying it . whatever keeps you asleep at night.
We don't want war but if it comes to it 'choose the lesser evil' .



was not? They are both a member of NATO and the EU, why are you even talking in fictional arguments?

Sweden can join NATO if they wish, they're already an EU member and EU has policies on defence with all member states.

Neutral countries such as my own are not members of NATO nor care to be, in fact if we DO join we are no longer neutral, we will never risk that.

Finland kicked Russias ass last time they invaded, I don't see any problem with them defending their own. Finalnd is also a member of EU.

I have posted application forms, easy to find for joining your countries defence, you are very welcome to back up your huff puf with action.
edit on 17-3-2014 by shappy because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2014 @ 06:04 AM
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reply to post by shappy
 





Have UK, US, France or Poland been invaded yet? Did I miss the news?



Because I'm a nice guy and am really rooting for you to just be someone with really bad reading comprehension skills, I will point it out for you AGAIN. This is a freebee and I WON'T point it out again, got it? I'll even make the letters big for you!

From the NPT concerning Ukraine -




Before voting on accession, Ukraine demanded from Russia, the USA, France and the United Kingdom a written statement that these powers undertook to extend the security guarantees to Ukraine.




Russia, the UK and the USA undertake to respect Ukraine's borders in accordance with the principles of the 1975 CSCE Final Act, to abstain from the use or threat of force against Ukraine, to support Ukraine where an attempt is made to place pressure on it by economic coercion, and to bring any incident of aggression by a nuclear power before the UN Security Council.


Source

Now if you can't see how the U.K., The U.S., even FRANCE has an obligation here, then I can't help you. Poland did NOT sign the NPT, Poland is ALSO a NATO member and they have already expressed their interests in this and want military intervention.


edit on 17-3-2014 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-3-2014 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)



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