Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

reply to post by pheonix358

Though I agree with you, I was speaking strictly from the legal point of view.
Even before this whole mess, I believe the Ukranian constitution as highest act doesn't leave the possibility to their autonomous units to vote on their status.

zilebeliveunknown
reply to post by pheonix358

 

Though I agree with you, I was speaking strictly from the legal point of view.
Even before this whole mess, I believe the Ukranian constitution as highest act doesn't leave the possibility to their autonomous units to vote on their status.

The Ukrainian constitution as highest act also doesn't approve of overthrowing government by means of a Maidan. Neither it approves the creation of organized armed militia which supports far-right ideology or seizing government buildings in some parts of the country while prohibiting to do the same thing in other parts of the country.

zilebeliveunknown
reply to post by pheonix358

 

Though I agree with you, I was speaking strictly from the legal point of view.
Even before this whole mess, I believe the Ukranian constitution as highest act doesn't leave the possibility to their autonomous units to vote on their status.

edit on 9-3-2014 by zilebeliveunknown because: (no reason given)

Perhaps you need to look at it differently. Right now the Ukraine does not have a viable working constitution since it has been taken over by outside forces. Therefore, anyone can do anything they wish. They exist in a constitution free time zone!

Honestly, the West has put in a puppet Government and is whining that Crimea is not following the rules?

HYPOCRISY AT ITS BEST! ....... BOUGHT TO YOU BY THE WEST.

P

zilebeliveunknown
reply to post by pheonix358

 

Though I agree with you, I was speaking strictly from the legal point of view.
Even before this whole mess, I believe the Ukranian constitution as highest act doesn't leave the possibility to their autonomous units to vote on their status.

edit on 9-3-2014 by zilebeliveunknown because: (no reason given)

Then they shouldn't have been called autonomous republics in the first place. The definition of autonomous implies the right to self direct. Source Allegiances can be made and can be broken by autonomous nations. If Crimea determines that it no longer wants to be a part of the Ukrainian republic, then that is their right as an autonomous republic regardless of what Ukraine has to say about it or has in their constitution. It's not the first time that it's happened but it would be nice to have that right of self determination actually be given and respected without bloodshed for once.

pheonix358
reply to post by zilebeliveunknown

 

The most important thing to answer your question is that Crimea atm doesn't have any legal mechanisms on their side to hold referendum, hence why Kiev considers it's illegal.

The current Government in Kiev was put there by the puppet masters. It is an unconstitutional Government and is not recognized by the Crimians or by many other sectors in the Ukraine. So how can an unconstitutional Government expect the rest of the country to abide by the constitution.

This is simply a case of the pot calling the kettle unconstitutional.

P

Sounds like how the russians when they threw out Gorbachev and the Soviet Union Collapsed.There was protests tanks on red square and the legitimate government was forced to step down. Little did they know they would just put a new dictator in power how long has Putin he been in control now what 14 years. But that aside you realize the same group that was elected by the people of Ukraine removed the president for corruption charges and the actions of the police at his command. Normally the Prime minister who was Mykola Azarov would have taken over when the president was removed but unfortunately he already resigned and fled the country as well. So the Duma had to appoint a temporary president and setup elections so sounds to me that they actually held the government together though just barely.

Melbourne_Militia
In the past week, Russian Militia and troops sent to Crimea to "protect" ethnic russians there have been reported to:

a) have raped two 15 year old Russian Crimean girls
b) setting up minefields north of Crimea on Ukranian land.
c) Sinking a ship in port to stop Ukranian ships exiting into the Black Sea.
d) Tartar homes have been burnt this morning aswell as vehicles and Tartar beaten by Russian Militia. This will bring a Turkish rsponse surely.

Last week I saw pics of Navy Seals landing in Kiev.

This morning theres reports of British troops landing in Ukraine as part of "training" excercise.

The George Bush Battle Group entered the Black Sea with 17 ships in total.

Poland sent its tanks to the Ukrainian border and called in Article 4 of the NATO charter as a call to security concerns given Russias actions next door.


This is all 1 spark away from major ignition.

The ships of the George H.W. Bush Carrier Strike Group have not entered the black sea. The carrier alone is too heavy under the Montreux Convention and it would be a major treaty violation for it to be there. Major, as in, bombs away, major. Turkey has said they would not allow the carrier to pass, as they are the keepers of the Bosporus Straits and the Dardanelles. So far the USS Truxtun an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer seems to be the only operational US vessel in the black sea. The only other US ship in the black sea is the USS Taylor, which is en route to Greece after the ship ran aground during mooring, and damaged her main screws. She is also reaching her 21 day limit for foreign operating in the area, as she was sent there to supervise the Sochi Olympics. Things may change, but 17 us warship in the Black sea is premature.

AX
FTNWO

gcaptain.com...

AlphaExray

Melbourne_Militia
In the past week, Russian Militia and troops sent to Crimea to "protect" ethnic russians there have been reported to:

a) have raped two 15 year old Russian Crimean girls
b) setting up minefields north of Crimea on Ukranian land.
c) Sinking a ship in port to stop Ukranian ships exiting into the Black Sea.
d) Tartar homes have been burnt this morning aswell as vehicles and Tartar beaten by Russian Militia. This will bring a Turkish rsponse surely.

Last week I saw pics of Navy Seals landing in Kiev.

This morning theres reports of British troops landing in Ukraine as part of "training" excercise.

The George Bush Battle Group entered the Black Sea with 17 ships in total.

Poland sent its tanks to the Ukrainian border and called in Article 4 of the NATO charter as a call to security concerns given Russias actions next door.


This is all 1 spark away from major ignition.

The ships of the George H.W. Bush Carrier Strike Group have not entered the black sea. The carrier alone is too heavy under the Montreux Convention and it would be a major treaty violation for it to be there. Major, as in, bombs away, major. Turkey has said they would not allow the carrier to pass, as they are the keepers of the Bosporus Straits and the Dardanelles. So far the USS Truxtun an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer seems to be the only operational US vessel in the black sea. The only other US ship in the black sea is the USS Taylor, which is en route to Greece after the ship ran aground during mooring, and damaged her main screws. She is also reaching her 21 day limit for foreign operating in the area, as she was sent there to supervise the Sochi Olympics. Things may change, but 17 us warship in the Black sea is premature.

AX
FTNWO

gcaptain.com...

edit on 9-3-2014 by AlphaExray because: spelling

Didnt realize anyone said that of course its not there will never be an aircraft carrier in the black sea of any size. You couldnt get an aircraft carrier to navigate through the bosporus.The sixth fleet is currently in the Aegean having just left port in greece. However the Aegean is in range of crimea for the aircraft carrier. I think they thought the USS truxton was part of the fleet escort but they travel alone. That one ship can handle itself and trust me the Russians are nervous its there it could kill ships still in there harbor with satellite tracking. from almost anywhere in the black sea. The Russians have nothing with that capability.

angelchemuel

Melbourne_Militia
In the past week, Russian Militia and troops sent to Crimea to "protect" ethnic russians there have been reported to:

a) have raped two 15 year old Russian Crimean girls
b) setting up minefields north of Crimea on Ukranian land.
c) Sinking a ship in port to stop Ukranian ships exiting into the Black Sea.
d) Tartar homes have been burnt this morning aswell as vehicles and Tartar beaten by Russian Militia. This will bring a Turkish rsponse surely.

Last week I saw pics of Navy Seals landing in Kiev.

This morning theres reports of British troops landing in Ukraine as part of "training" excercise.

The George Bush Battle Group entered the Black Sea with 17 ships in total.

Poland sent its tanks to the Ukrainian border and called in Article 4 of the NATO charter as a call to security concerns given Russias actions next door.


This is all 1 spark away from major ignition.

Could you provide links please to a), b), d), Navy Seals, British Troops? I would be very interested in following those up.
Thank you
Rainbows
Jane

Im getting news updates from various sources in Ukraine and nearby on Facebook Newsfeeds, so reembering which group, source etc posted it would be difficult. I shall try and post info on here once I see it moving forward.

reply to post by dragonridr

That one ship can handle itself and trust me the Russians are nervous its there it could kill ships still in there harbor with satellite tracking. from almost anywhere in the black sea. The Russians have nothing with that capability.

You really need to have a squiz at the makeup of the Russian Black Sea Fleet before you make these sorts of statements. I fully realize you think the US warships are invincible dreadnoughts of freedom and democracy, but a little look at reality once in a while may change your view.

The Black Sea Fleet, that is the Russians, are very formidable and could snuff out this destroyer without leaving their dock.

P

reply to post by dragonridr

I agree, the Burkes can handle themselves. They could probably sink it, as I do not believe in the unsinkable ship theory, especially one with a dated 16 simultaneous threat awareness computer, but sinking a nuclear powered vessel in their own backyard would be an environmental catastrophe and render any gains worthless.

One note, the Russian gear is on par, if not newer, and less satellite dependant. Lots of Navy's with very comparable gear.

AX
FTNWO

pheonix358
reply to post by dragonridr

 

That one ship can handle itself and trust me the Russians are nervous its there it could kill ships still in there harbor with satellite tracking. from almost anywhere in the black sea. The Russians have nothing with that capability.

You really need to have a squiz at the makeup of the Russian Black Sea Fleet before you make these sorts of statements. I fully realize you think the US warships are invincible dreadnoughts of freedom and democracy, but a little look at reality once in a while may change your view.

The Black Sea Fleet, that is the Russians, are very formidable and could snuff out this destroyer without leaving their dock.

P

No just reality its range far exceeds the Russian navies the Black sea fleet is a paper tiger they only have about 40 ships capable of actually leaving port most have been stripped and are nothing more than floating hulls. Of those 40 only 19 have been updated since the soviet union.They have 3 new ships that will join the black sea fleet but they wont be ready until late 2015. So no the Black sea fleet isnt a major threat as long as they stay out of there range. In fact the entire black sea fleet could be gone in under an hour since i looked at where the George W Bush carrier really is and its in Antalya, Turkey. Meaning the entire black sea fleet is in range.

More and more reports on Ukrainian military deployments: 300 mm MLRS "Smerch" from 107th Regiment in Kremenchug pic.twitter.com/pqEbFdPkKh

source: twitter.com...



Both sides are moving pieces into place. I'm hoping some type of agreement can be reached before the tension rises any further.

AlphaExray
reply to post by dragonridr

 

Agreed. The Burkes can handle themselves. They could probably sink it, as I do not believe in the unsinkable ship theory, especially one with a dated 16 simultaneous threat awareness computer, but sinking a nuclear powered vessel in their own backyard would be an environmental catastrophe and render any gains worthless.

AX
FTNWO

Oh definitely not unsinkable but we know they would rush back to Turkey and sit in the bosphorus targeting russian navy. and hiting targets still in the port in Crimea. Its basically missile systems that happen to be on the water.

reply to post by dragonridr

No just reality its range far exceeds the Russian navies the Black sea fleet is a paper tiger they only have about 40 ships capable of actually leaving port most have been stripped and are nothing more than floating hulls.

With respect on this... I've researched this and I've written on this in the last year. In some depth, at times. Russia has been busting their butts at double time for rebuilding, modernizing and making ready their military for several years now. Naval capability and true blue water naval patrolling have have been a key part of Putins overall long term thinking. He said he'd planned to have at least one missile boat in blue water patrol at all times again by the start of 2013. I never kept up to catch the details on their sub deployments and how that has turned out, if they're even reliable on reporting it.

However, the profound and dramatic shifts in priorities for both the People's Republic of China and the Russian federation have been so well established now for commitment in that direction, it's total insanity to see even our own leaders still talking down Russia like it's the 1990's while they wore the shame of losing the cold war.

Err... We gloated a bit much as I directly remember that period of time and Putin was in lesser areas of power to have been stung by our gloating, too...They're back and they're capable. They're also pissed..and we have clowns at the helm.

We look down on them at our peril, in my opinion...and I fear our leaders actually are doing that here.

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by dragonridr

 

No just reality its range far exceeds the Russian navies the Black sea fleet is a paper tiger they only have about 40 ships capable of actually leaving port most have been stripped and are nothing more than floating hulls.

With respect on this... I've researched this and I've written on this in the last year. In some depth, at times. Russia has been busting their butts at double time for rebuilding, modernizing and making ready their military for several years now. Naval capability and true blue water naval patrolling have have been a key part of Putins overall long term thinking. He said he'd planned to have at least one missile boat in blue water patrol at all times again by the start of 2013. I never kept up to catch the details on their sub deployments and how that has turned out, if they're even reliable on reporting it.

However, the profound and dramatic shifts in priorities for both the People's Republic of China and the Russian federation have been so well established now for commitment in that direction, it's total insanity to see even our own leaders still talking down Russia like it's the 1990's while they wore the shame of losing the cold war.

Err... We gloated a bit much as I directly remember that period of time and Putin was in lesser areas of power to have been stung by our gloating, too...They're back and they're capable. They're also pissed..and we have clowns at the helm.

We look down on them at our peril, in my opinion...and I fear our leaders actually are doing that here.

Militarily there Black sea fleet had been neglected until about 2009 so as of right now its not the major threat it was during the cold war technology changes. And most of the Black Sea fleet was well cannibalized for a longtime. There fleet couldnt hold up to an attack by NATO for more than an hour. There threat is there ground troops they are in every way equal to US troops and the Russians have spent alot of money to makeit that way. The problem is there airforce and Navy are not adequate meaning there at a severe disadvantage in a full scale war. This is why they would probably go Nuclear when they lost the airforce and navy that would be the danger. We have pundits who claim our ABM systems would take care of that well thats a fantasy. To make it even scarier i remember reading with todays warheads they said over a hundred would destroy life on the entire planet thats scary. Because every nation should be worried if a conflict between two superpowers occur. But it wont happen over Ukraine i dont think.

The latest VICE news report out of Ukraine.

As Russians stream into Crimea to help wrestle it away from Ukraine, an unlikely group of Serbian war veterans, who have experience fighting in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo, are turning up at the checkpoints too. VICE News reporter Simon Ostrovsky follows Russian troops as they continue their occupation of Ukrainian military bases, and learns about unidentified men in masks attacking journalists reporting on the situation in the peninsula.

reply to post by dragonridr

Militarily there Black sea fleet had been neglected until about 2009 so as of right now its not the major threat it was during the cold war technology changes.

The thing is, that's an invalid way of looking at this. Would it be fair for the Russians to judge the problems surrounding something done on the North side of Cuba by the current size and compliment at Key West's Coast Guard Station and other offices? Of course not. Why? The same reason.

To look at Russia's Black Sea Fleet in port is like looking at a local cop who may be too fat to run from here to there without almost passing out. We've all likely seen a few like that.....and they're a pathetic sight for that line of work. Kinda like the way they have prioritized away from that fleet for many years with Russia.

Beat that overweight cop tho?....and you'll JUST be starting to smile with self satisfaction as 20 of his buddies arrive to turn you into kibbles and bits and bits and bits. The Black Sea Fleet is WELL within missile defense nets of the Russian home soil..and those range out as far as 600 nautical miles.

They could have row boats and tug boats at Sevastopol, and it'd still rank as a fierce fighting force.....if they had ONE working means of communication back to the Russian military command. Welcome to the real thing, eh? Russia is a very formidable force to anyone, if they're literally off Russian national beaches.

majesticgent
The latest VICE news report out of Ukraine.

As Russians stream into Crimea to help wrestle it away from Ukraine, an unlikely group of Serbian war veterans, who have experience fighting in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo, are turning up at the checkpoints too. VICE News reporter Simon Ostrovsky follows Russian troops as they continue their occupation of Ukrainian military bases, and learns about unidentified men in masks attacking journalists reporting on the situation in the peninsula.

Good vid, thanks.
To add more to the above,
The Serbian War Vets are "Supporting the Cossacks in defending Crimea from the West."

dreamingawake

majesticgent
The latest VICE news report out of Ukraine.

As Russians stream into Crimea to help wrestle it away from Ukraine, an unlikely group of Serbian war veterans, who have experience fighting in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo, are turning up at the checkpoints too. VICE News reporter Simon Ostrovsky follows Russian troops as they continue their occupation of Ukrainian military bases, and learns about unidentified men in masks attacking journalists reporting on the situation in the peninsula.

Good vid, thanks.
To add more to the above,
The Serbian War Vets are "Supporting the Cossacks in defending Crimea from the West."

edit on 9-3-2014 by dreamingawake because: fixed

Ya these are such great guys.......watch the video people and see the cold hard truth. These are bad guys supporting fascism. This is the cold hard truth and just watch the pro-Russia brigade try and spin this.

SubTruth

dreamingawake

majesticgent
The latest VICE news report out of Ukraine.

As Russians stream into Crimea to help wrestle it away from Ukraine, an unlikely group of Serbian war veterans, who have experience fighting in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo, are turning up at the checkpoints too. VICE News reporter Simon Ostrovsky follows Russian troops as they continue their occupation of Ukrainian military bases, and learns about unidentified men in masks attacking journalists reporting on the situation in the peninsula.

Good vid, thanks.
To add more to the above,
The Serbian War Vets are "Supporting the Cossacks in defending Crimea from the West."

edit on 9-3-2014 by dreamingawake because: fixed

Ya these are such great guys.......watch the video people and see the cold hard truth. These are bad guys supporting fascism. This is the cold hard truth and just watch the pro-Russia brigade try and spin this.

Did I say that they are great guys? NO. I said good video because it's talking about who they are. There has been confusion on this site about that. Why put words "in my mouth?"